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Cecil
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Posted -
2004/5/10 上午 10:03:44
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是否新版的羅馬彌撒經書總論用錯了字眼?
從前我們的教導是當呈上禮品時我們尚未是在'奉獻',所以那首歌也不叫'奉獻詠'.但新總論似乎又用上了這名稱.......
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靚仔
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Posted -
2004/5/10 下午 12:58:22
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我們不是一生都已奉獻了給主嗎？哈哈哈．
那麼是否要攪一個奉獻前詠嗎？
施施姐，是誰教您的？小弟就未聽過這種說法，很有興趣知道．
弟手中梵二前的每日彌撒經書都是這樣稱呼的．
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Cecil
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Posted -
2004/5/10 下午 02:51:06
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我堂區一位大姐'當年'教落.C神父也有提及這一點.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2004/5/10 下午 03:51:46
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施施組,
那我想你堂區的大姐也可能是c神父教的了.
弟的聖樂科是讀禮儀時最差的一科,而我的聖樂教授是一位教律學者和音樂家,他是在哈佛讀聖樂的,所以可能沒有在羅馬讀的正統!哈哈哈.
我只能說我未曾聽過c神父所稱的說法,也不認同此看法,最好就是可以找出一些專家的看法和文獻的支持.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2004/5/10 下午 04:51:55
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據說這是梵二改的觀念.可能是禮儀憲章?!?
我有空會找找看.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2004/5/10 下午 05:14:53
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這問題似乎是個HISTORIC PROBLEM ON TERNMINGOLOGY -
"CNP Feedback - Offertory? --
or Preparation of the Gifts?
by Gary D. Penkala
The "Feedback Box" on the CanticaNOVA Publications website has proven quite effective in promoting communications on a variety of subjects, and expressing concerns of liturgists and musicians. From time to time, we'll compile a few of these questions or comments and put them in public view, with the hope that others with similar concerns may benefit from their content.
Q. Dear CNP:
I've read we're no longer to say the "Offertory," but rather the "Preparation of the Gifts." We are no longer to think of "offering ourselves" at this time. However, the Catechism of the Catholic Church still refers to it as the "Offertory" and the beautiful prayers said at that time speak of "offering." I'm confused!? Can you give some feedback on this please?
-- A Confused Liturgist
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A. Dear Confused Liturgist:
Let me assure you, you are not the only liturgist confused by this situation. Nothing has changed, even since Vatican II, in the fundamental understanding of "offering" at the Mass. The confusion, for those who are serious about understanding the theology of liturgy, lies only in the terminology used and in its translation into the vernacular. Let's look closely at the specific moment you mentioned: from after the General Intercessions until the Prayer over the Gifts.
This time and the song or verse associated with it are known by these names in various documents:
from 1962 Missale Romanum [original Latin]
Ritual action: Offertorium
Song: Antiphona ad offertorium
from 1972 Music in Catholic Worship [US Bishops' Committee on the Liturgy]
Ritual action: Preparation of the Gifts
Song: Offertory Song (may be vocal, organ, instrumental)
from 1975 Missale Romanum [original Latin]
Ritual action: Præparatio donorum
Song: Cantus ad offertorium
from 1984 Messale Romano [Italian translation]
Ritual action: Presentazione dei doni
Song: Canto di Offertorio
from 1985 Missale Romanum [Sacramentary -- English translation by ICEL]
Ritual action: Preparation of the Altar and the Gifts
Song: Offertory Song
from 1989 Cæremoniale Episcoporum [Ceremonial of Bishops -- English translation by ICEL]
Ritual action: Preparation of the Gifts
Song: Song for the Preparation of the Gifts (Offertory Song)
also: Song for the Presentation of the Gifts (Offertory Song)
from 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church [English translation by USCC]
Ritual action: Presentation of the Offerings (the Offertory)
Song: not mentioned specifically
One can see from this brief overview of the evolution of the terminology the inconsistencies that exist. What has remained uniform is the music -- it has always been called the "Offertory Song," and in my view should still be so named. Less clear is what to call the ritual action... and why.
While the documents and their translations have progressed through Preparation of the Gifts (and Altar) and Presentation of the Gifts in various times and languages, the most recent Vatican issuance (the Catechism) seems to return to the idea of "offering," understood in the proper sense. "The bread and wine are brought to the altar; they will be offered by the priest in the name of Christ in the Eucharistic sacrifice in which they will become his body and blood." (Catechism #1350)
This ritual is the first of the crucial elements of the Eucharist, which are 1) take, 2) bless, 3) break, and 4) eat. The proper sense of this action seems to be an "offering" of the gifts for the sacrifice about to occur, perhaps presented to God (as found in French, German and Italian translations of texts) but not offered as was commonly attributed to the 1962 Missal.
Robert Cabié, in The Church at Prayer: The Eucharist (1986) writes:
The essential act of the priest who receives the offerings no longer consists in his elevating the paten and chalice in a gesture of offering, as the medieval ritualists imagined, but rather in placing them on the corporal and then holding them a little above the table as he says the prayer. The prayer is no longer the one found in the Tridentine Order of Mass ("Suscipe, sancte Pater") but is modeled on the "blessings" in the Jewish liturgy.
In The Mass (1976) Josef Jungmann, SJ, writes:
In the new Order of Mass, the symbolism contained in the act of placing the gifts upon the altar have been clarified. The Offertory procession of the faithful is encouraged. Even the gesture of elevating the gifts in a movement of offering has been retained. On the other hand, nearly all the accompanying prayers have been dropped, and only one short sentence accompanies the double action. The renewed Offertory formula embodies a three-fold idea: the bread and wine are products of this our earth and thus symbolize our world and our life; they also signify the work of our hands and our daily labor; and they are offered here as the matter for what they will become in the Eucharistic mystery: the bread of life, the spiritual drink. This interpretation at the same time confirms from another angle that the "offering" (offerimus tibi) is not intended in an absolute, self-sufficient sense.
The present liturgical theology is clear in this area, even if the terminology is not. We offer what God has given to us -- bread, wine -- and concurrently our lives and prayers, back for God's use in the what will be the ultimate sacrifice imagineable, Calvary made present to us through Christ the High Priest's action in his Church. The supreme "offering" takes place by virtue of the Eucharistic liturgy in total, whereby Christ, in earthly forms produced by our own lives and hands, is sacrificially offered to the Father for our salvation. Even the Tridentine liturgy, understood correctly, recognized this.
Rev. Pius Parsch, writing in 1957 in The Liturgy of the Mass says about the prayer Suscipe, sancte Pater ("Receive, o holy Father, almighty, eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Thy unworthy servant, offer unto Thee..."):
What does the priest offer? "This spotless victim." He offers the bread, but the expression hostia immaculata shows that the thoughts of the priest in this prayer do not rest here. This bread which he holds in his hands is as yet neither hostia (victim) nor, properly speaking immaculata. Yet already he has its destiny in mind. It is to become the Eucaharist, the Hostia immaculata in very truth, a consummation already anticipated in thought.
The revised attitude that exists toward this "Offertory" time flows consistently from its liturgical history. The Roman Missal that we presently use seeks to focus our attention on the grand offering of the Victim to the Father (the Eucharistic action), with a renewed understanding that the "Offertory" or "Preparation of the Gifts" is merely a prelude to this "First and Foremost Act."
So... what to call this prelude ritual? Perhaps "Offertory" is best, owing to its recent inclusion in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, understanding it to be an "offering for the sacrifice." This would bring in line the dichotomy which can otherwise exist between the names for the ritual action and the song accompanying it. Let's hope this will all be cleared up with the publication of the new edition of the Missale Romanum soon. "
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edward
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Posted -
2004/5/10 下午 09:49:40
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小弟家裡新買了一本1995年重印的主教禮書（Editio typica 1984）。當中論及聖祭禮儀是這樣說的：
145. Finita oratione universali, Episcopus sedet cum mitra. Concelebrantes et populus pariter sedent. Tunc fit cantus ad offertorium, qui protrahitur saltem usquedum dona super altare deposita fuerint ...
而在新版羅馬彌撒經書的聖祭禮儀的rubrics中，則是這樣說明的：
21. His absolutis, incipit cantus ad offertorium. Interim ministri corporale, purificatorium, calicem, pallam et missale super altare collocant.
22. Expedit ut fideles participationem suam oblatione manifestent, afferendo sive panem et vinum ad Eucharistiae celebrationem, sive alia dona, quibus necessitatibus Ecclesiae et pauperum subveniatur.
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edward
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Posted -
2004/5/10 下午 09:58:52
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而在教廷聖禮部的Notitiae中，則對1975年版彌撒經書總論作出如下的「釋法」：
49.
Query 1: What is the genuine meaning of the offertory rite? The description of the offertory of the Mass, it is pointed out, speaks only of the "preparation" of the gifts and placing them on the altar, of the people's offerings for the Church and for the poor, but nothing about the of "offering" of the sacrifice.
Reply: History teaches that the offertory rite is an action of preparation for the sacrifice in which priest and ministers accept the gifts offered by the people. These are the elements for the celebration (the bread and wine) and other gifts intended for the Church and the poor. This preparatory meaning has always been regarded as the identifying note of the offertory, even though the formularies did not adequately bring it out and were couched in sacrificial language. The new rite puts this specifying note in a clearer light by means both of the active part taken by the faithful in the presentation of the gifts and the formularies the celebrant says in placing the elements for the eucharistic celebration on the altar. Notitiae 6 (1970) 37, no. 25.
Query 2: Does it not seem that the suppression of the prayers that accompanied the offering of the bread and wine has impoverished the offertory rite?
Reply: In no way. The former prayers: "Suscipe, Sancte Pater." . . and "Offerimus tibi, Domine." . . were not accurate expressions of the genuine meaning of the "offertory" rites but merely anticipated the meaning of the true and literal sacrificial offering that is present in the eucharistic prayer after the consecration, when Christ becomes present on the altar as victim. The new formularies for the gifts bring out the giving of glory to God, who is the source of all things and of all the gifts given to humanity. They state explicitly the meaning of the rite being carried out; they associate the value of human work, which embraces all human concerns, with the mystery of Christ. The offertory rite, then, has been restored through that explicit teaching and shines forth with new light. Notitiae 6 (1970) 37-38, no. 26.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2004/5/11 上午 09:52:05
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施施姐,
我絕對同意這是terminglogy的問題.
有些人喜歡一個名稱多於另一個,但不代表另一個名稱錯.
當然每一個名稱背後所表達的神學有差異.
當然有時也幾無謂,尤其是經翻譯後.
有人說,梵二後我們不應叫彌撒,應叫感恩祭.
感恩祭都不好,應叫感恩禮.etc. etc.
新的救贖的聖事指引中也有此問題.
那些"特派送聖體員"的名稱真令人頭痕.
如何在中文表達communion 及 eucharist的分別?
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Cecil
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Posted -
2004/5/11 下午 03:41:52
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這問題一點兒也不容易咯,因為兩個英文/外文詞彙是分別表達這同一件聖事(聖體聖事)的不同內涵.
這情況就好像我這些法律工杖要將外文法律詞彙轉為中文的問題一樣,但不同者,是兩個信仰名詞一定要能表達詞的本義而不能用一些代號來充當算數.
COMMUNION是共融吧? EUCHARIST,感恩吧?
有沒有'感恩共融聖事'?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2004/5/11 下午 05:19:38
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但問題是他想表達的不是"原本"的意思,而是引申的意思.
communion在這裡應是想指領聖體的行動,而不是共融的本意.Taking the communion是指領聖體這個行動.
所以指引說他們的名稱應是extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, and not “special minister of Holy Communion” nor “extraordinary minister of the Eucharist” nor “special minister of the Eucharist,” by which names the meaning of this function is unnecessarily and improperly broadened.
問你死唔死?
你看天主教教理則說感恩聖事有很多名稱.當中當然包括Eucharist及Holy Communion.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2004/5/12 上午 09:36:41
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(特派送聖體員的)"名稱應是extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, and not “special minister of Holy Communion” nor “extraordinary minister of the Eucharist” nor “special minister of the Eucharist,” by which names the meaning of this function is unnecessarily and improperly broadened.問你死唔死?"
SPECIAL-EXTRAORDINARY/HOLY COMMUNION-EUCHARIST -
前者爭議是英文的DICTIONARY MEANING, 後者是禮儀用詞的斟酌,兩者都指向他們的FUNCTION範圍.他們派聖體但不能祝聖聖體.用HOLY COMMUNION是比較確切的.至於他們是SPECIAL 或 EXTRAORDINARY,則後者顯然較為妥當.SPECIAL表示他們高人一等,教會當然不以此為規範,因為他們沒有神品.
我的有限理解就僅此而已.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2004/5/12 下午 02:36:30
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施施姐的理解絕對正確.
只是考起譯做中文的人吧了.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2004/5/12 下午 03:06:33
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'奉獻'在梵二之後起的問題看來來自以下的分析:-
...we arrive at the Offertory (DURING MASS), the offering of "this holy and living sacrifice…" and more. This is where the Offertory actually happens. But, besides the offering of the "life giving bread [and] saving cup," the Church summons the whole People of God to ‘learn to offer ourselves’, pouring ourselves outward with Christ, toward God in praise, and toward our world in compassionate service.
"In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you this life-giving bread, this saving cup" (Anamnesis + Offering, Eucharistic Prayer II)
The Church’s intention, however, is that the faithful not only offer this spotless Victim but also learn to offer themselves,and so day by day to be consummated,through Christ the Mediator,
into unity with God and with each other,
so that at last God may be all in all." (GIRM 79f)
如果執意說'奉獻'是到感恩經這部分才發生,就會要求將奉上禮品限為預備動作而失去信眾們奉獻身心的禮儀標誌了.
新版總論一定是斟酌過這神學意義才在那段規則上用回'奉獻詠'一詞的.
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