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Pooh-Pooh
Posted - 2008/6/23 ¤W¤È 12:33:06
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¤Ñ¥D¦³µL¨ä¥¦§ó¬O§ÚÌ·Q¹³¥H¥~ªº¤èªk¥h§l¤Þ¥LÌ¡A§Ú§ó¤£ª¾¹D¡A¦]¬°¸t¸gµL±Ò¥Ü¡C¦ý¬O¡A§ÚÌ·Q«H¤Ñ¥Dªº·O·R¡A¬Û«H°ò·þªºëƶV©Ò±a¨Óªº±ÏÅ«¬OµLªº¡F¦Ó§ÚÌ¥çn©ú¥Õ¡A¦b¤H»{¬°¤£¥i¯àªº¡A¦b¤Ñ¥D«o¬O¥i¯àªº¡F
±q¾ú¥v¤¤¤Ñ¥D¥~¦bªº¤uµ{¡A§Ú̬ݨì¤Ñ¥D¥²©w·|Ä~ÄòÍ¢ªº±Ï¥@¤u§@¡Aª½¦Ü©Ò¦³ªº¨ü³yª«¡]¦pSimon©Ò»¡¡A³sÅ]°¡^¥D°Ê¦ÛÄ@Âk¦VÍ¢¡C
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¦Ü©óÄ«ªGªº¤ñ³ë¡A¤w¸g¯Âºé¬Oõ¾ÇªºÅÞ¿è°Q½×¡AµL¥²n¤j®aªá®É¶¡¥h°Q½×§a¤F!
¸t¸gªº½T¬O¤Ñ¥Dªº±Ò¥Ü¡F¤Ñ¥DÁÙ¦b¸t¸g¤¤§â¦Û¤v±Ò¥Üµ¹¤H¡F¦ý¬O¡A¤Ñ¥D¬O¥HÍ¢ªº¦æ°Ê¦b¤HÃþªº¾ú¥v©M¤é±`¥Í¬¡¤¤§â¦Û¤v±Ò¥Üµ¹§Ú̳oÓÀu¥ý©Ê¦b«H¥õ¤Ñ¥D¤¤¬O«D±`ºònªº¡IC¿q°¥Í¦¨¤H¥¿¬O°ª®p©Ò¦b^.^
¸t¸g¬O¤Ñ¥D±Ò¥Ü¦Û¤vªº¤@Ó³~®|¡I±Ð·|¤]¬O¥t¥~¤@Ó³~®|¡I
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¦ý¾\Ū¸t¸g¤£¯à¥H"©ú¥Õ"¤Ñ¥D§@¬°¥Øªº¡A§Ú̾\Ū¸t¸g©M²âÅ¥±Ð·|ªº°V¾É¡A¦nª¾¹D¦p¦ó¹ê½î°ò·þªººÖµ¡A¨Ã±q°ò·þ®{¥Í¬¡¥hÅéÅç©M"©ú¥Õ"¤Ñ¥Dªº¥»¡C
¦p¸tÅé¸t¨Æ¬°¨Ò:Trans-substanceªº¯«¾Ç§Ú¬Û«H¤j®a³£«Ü»{ÃÑ©M"©ú¥Õ"¡A¦ý©l©óÁÙ¬O»Ýn§ÚÌ¥h¬Û«H©MÅéÅç¸tÅ骺¯u¹êÁ{¦b¡I
Ãø¹D¤@ӱФͬ۫H³o¬OC¿q¯u¨¡AÅé·|¨ì°ò·þªºÁ{¦b¡A¦ý¥L¤£À´±oTrans-substanceªº¯«¾Ç¥Lªº«H¥õ´N¬O¦³¦MÀI¶Ü?
§Úªº¯«®v¸g±`´£¿ô¡A§ÚÌn¤p¤ß¡A¦Û¤v¤£n§@¤F¦Û¤vªº¤Ñ¥D!
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simon
Posted - 2008/6/23 ¤W¤È 01:01:54
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pooh-pooh,
µ´¤j³¡¤À§A»¡ªº¡A§Ú³£¦P·N¡A°ß¿W¬O§A»¡¡G¡u¤Ñ¥D¤£·|ª¾¹D³Ì²×·|¦³¤H°í«ù©Úµ´Í¢¡C¡v
³o¤@ÂI¡A¯Â¬O§Aªº¾Ð´ú¡AÁÙ¬O¦³¯«¾Ç°ò¦ªº¨£¸Ñ¡H³o¬O¤£¬O§Ú̱з|ªº·í«H¹D²z¤§¤@¡H
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¿W¥ß«ä¦Ò
Posted - 2008/6/23 ¤W¤È 01:25:34
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Pooh-Pooh:
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§A³o¼Ë»¡¡A§Y¬O»¡¤F¤Hªº¦æ°Ê©Î¨M©w¬O¥ý©ó¤Ñ¥Dªºª¾¹D¡A§Y¬O¤Ñ¥D³£nÚ»¤H¦Ó¦æ¨Æ¡A©Î¬O¤Ñ¥D¬O¤@Ó²q´ú¢A¾a¦ôªº¤Ñ¥D¡C
§A»¡¡G¡u¸t¸g¬O¤Ñ¥D±Ò¥Ü¦Û¤vªº¤@Ó³~®|¡I±Ð·|¤]¬O¥t¥~¤@Ó³~®|¡I¡v
²z½×¤W¡A±Ð·|©Ò±Ð¾Éªº´N§Y¬O¸t¸g©Ò±Ð¾Éªº¡A©Ò¥H±Ð·|©Ò±Ð¾Éªº¤@©w¤£·|Â÷¶}¸t¸g¡A¦]¦¹¸t¸g¬O°ò¦¡A¦Ó¤£¬O¦¸n¡C
§A»¡¡G¡uÃø¹D¤@ӱФͬ۫H³o¬OC¿q¯u¨¡AÅé·|¨ì°ò·þªºÁ{¦b¡A¦ý¥L¤£À´±oTrans-substanceªº¯«¾Ç¥Lªº«H¥õ´N¬O¦³¦MÀI¶Ü?¡v
§Ú·Q§Aª¾¹D¡A¦pªG¤@ӱФ͡A¥u¬O·Pı¨ìC¿qªº¯u¹êÁ{¦b©Î¯à¤Oªº«O¦ö¡A¦Ó¹ï¸t¸g¯u²z¨S¦³»{ÃÑ¡A¨º»ò±Ð¤Í¦p¦óÀ´±o¥h¡u¿ë§O¡v¨º¨Ç·Pı¯u¬O¥X©óC¿qÁÙ¬O§_¡H§Anª¾¹D¡A²§±Ð¤H¤h¤]·|¦³¬ÛÃþ¦üªº¸g¾ú¡A¥u¬O²§±Ð¤H¤h©Ò«Hªº¯«¤£¬OC¿q¡A¦pªG±Ð¤Í¨S¦³¸t¸g¯u²z§@°ò¦¡A¨º»ò»P²§±Ð¤H¤h©Ò¸g¾úªº¡u¯à¤OÁ{¦b¡B¤º¤ß¥¦w¡B«O¦ö¡vµ¥ªº·Pı¦³¤°»ò¤À§O¡H²ö«D¥h¨ì²§±Ðªº¯«¬é±«e¸g¾ú¤F¡u¯à¤OÁ{¦b¡B¤º¤ß¥¦w¡B«O¦ö¡vµ¥ªº·Pı¡A¤S¥i¥H»¡¬O¸g¾úC¿q¶Ü¡H
¥t¥~¡A§Ú¨S¦³»¡Åª¸t¸g³æ¤@¥Øªº¬O©ú¥Õ¤Ñ¥D¡A½Ð¬Ý²M·¡§Ú¤§«e©Ò¼gªº¡A§Ú»¡Åª¸t¸g¬On§ÚÌ¥h¡u»{ÃÑЩú¥ÕСA¥s§Ú̬۫HЩM¿í¦æЪº¦®·N¦Ó¦æ¡C¡v
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¿W¥ß«ä¦Ò
Posted - 2008/6/23 ¤W¤È 01:30:15
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simon¡G
§A»¡´¿Å¥¤@¦ì¯«¾Ç°|¯«¤÷»¡¦³¤@¦ì±Ð¤÷»¡¹D¡G¡u³Ì²×³sÅ]°¡]¥L¤]¬O¨ü³yª«¡^¤]¥i¥H±o±Ï¡v
¦pªG¬O§Ú¡A§Ú³ÌÃöª`n°Ý¨º¯«¤÷ªº¡A¥i¯à¤£¬On·Qª¾¹D¨º¦ì±Ð¤÷ªº¦W¦r¡A¦Ó¬Onª¾¹D³oÓ¡u³Ì²×³sÅ]°¡]¥L¤]¬O¨ü³yª«¡^¤]¥i¥H±o±Ï¡vªº±Ð¾É¬O¥X©ó¸t¸gªºþ¤@³B¡C
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¿W¥ß«ä¦Ò
Posted - 2008/6/23 ¤W¤È 01:31:59
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Pooh-Pooh
Posted - 2008/6/23 ¤W¤È 02:35:50
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¤Ñ¥D¦b¾ãÓ±ÏÅ«¤uµ{¤¤¡A·íµM¬O¥D°Êªº¡F¦ý¤]¦³¨ä¿n·¥ªº³Q°Ê¤@±¡C
¤Ñ¥D¿n·¥§l¤Þ¤Hªº¦^À³¡A¦ý°ò©óÍ¢ªº·R©M©¾«H¡A¥L¤´µMnµ¥«Ý¤Hªº¦^À³©M¦X§@¡C
±Ð·|ªº°V¾É©M¸t¶Ç¡A©M¸t¸g¥²µM¬O¬Û»²¬Û¦¨¡A¨S¦³¨º¤@Ó¬O¦¸nªº¡F¦Ó¥B¡A¨âªÌ³£¬O°ò¦¡C¦o̬O°ò¦¡A¥¿¦]¬°¦oÌ°O¸ü©MÄÄz¤F¤Ñ¥Dªº±Ò¥Ü©M¦®·N¡C
(¥Î»y¥i¯à¤£ºë¸P¡A¦ý¡A§Ú¬Û«H¤j®a¹ï¦¹³£«Ü¤F¸Ñ©M©ú¥Õ¡A©Ò¥H¤£¸Ôz¤F¡F§_«h¡A§ÚÌ«K³´¤J¤F¡y°ß¿W¸t¸g¡zªº°Q½×)
¸tÅé¸t¨Æªº¨Ò¤l¥u¬O·Q±j½Õ"«H"©M»P¤Ñ¥D¦P¦æªº«n©Ê¡A¨Ã¤£¬O§_©w©Î©¿²¤¸t¸g©M±Ð·|°V¾Éªº¥²n©Ê¡Cø¦n»~·|!
"Å]°±o±Ï"¡]¨ä¹ê§Ú¤]Å¥¹L«Ü¦h¦¸¡^¡A§Ú¬Û«H¡A´£¥Xªº¤H¬O°ò©ó¹ï¤Ñ¥D¤¯·Oªº±æ¼w¡F¸t¸g¦³µL´yz¤£ª¾¹D¡A¦ý¬O§_¥²n¦³´yz©O¡H¸t¸g¬O¸t¯«µ¹¤Hªº¡]ªp¥B¡AÅ]°¹ï¤Ñ¥Dªº»{ÃѤñ§Ų́C¤@Ó¤H³£¦h¡A¥u¬O¥L§¹¥þ§â¦Û¤v©Úµ´©ó¤Ñ¥D¡^¡A"Å]°±o±Ï"¬O¤Ñ¥Dªº¨Æ¡A»P¤H¥i¤z©O¡H
"¤Ñ¥D¤£·|ª¾¹D³Ì²×·|¦³¤H°í«ù©Úµ´Í¢¡C" ¨ä¹ê»P¤Ñ¥Dªº©¾¸Û©M·R¬O¤@¯ß¬Û©Óªº¡F§_«h¡A¤Ñ¥D¹ï³o¤H©Ò³y©Ò¶Éª`ªº´NµL·N¸q¤F¡F¥¿¦]¬°¦¹¡A¤Ñ¥Dªº¤uµ{ÁÙn¤£Â_¡A¦]¬°³o¬O¤Ñ¥D¡G·R ^.^
(±q¥t¤@¨¤«×¡A¦pªG§A±µ¨ü¤Ñ¥D©ñ¤U¤FÍ¢ªº¶W©Ê¡A¨ÃÄ@·N¦Û¤v¤£·|ª¾¹D¨C¤H³Ì²×¬O§_¿ï¾Ü¤Ñ¥DªºÚ»ªk¡F³o´N¦ÛµM¶¶²z¦¨³¹¤F)
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edward
Posted - 2008/6/23 ¤W¤È 08:05:13
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Dear Simon,
The name of that Church Father is called Origen.
His theory is called Apokatastasis,
and it has already been condemned by the Church.
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simon
Posted - 2008/6/23 ¤U¤È 03:48:07
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¿W¥ß«ä¦Ò¡G
¡u³sÅ]°¤]¥i±o±Ï¡v¤£¬O²M´·¦a¥X©ó¸t¸g³¹¸`¡A¦Ó¬O¤@ºØÅÞ¿è±À½×¡C±À½×ªº°ò¦¬O¤Ñ¥D¬O¤¯·O¡B¥þª¾©M¤½¸q¡CÅ]°¬O¨ü³yª«¡A¤H¤]¬O¨ü³yª«¡F¦hÃaªº¤H¤]¦³¾÷·|®¬§ï¡AÅ]°¬°¬Æ»ò¨S¦³¾÷·|©O¡H
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simon
Posted - 2008/6/23 ¤U¤È 03:49:37
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Edward¡A
ÁÂÁ§Aªº¸ê®Æ¡C§AŪ®Ñ¤ñ§Ú¦h¡A¥i¦³Ãö©óApokatastasisªº®Ñ¥i¥H¤¶²Ðµ¹§Ú¡H
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¤p¤
Posted - 2008/6/24 ¤W¤È 12:59:31
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¿W¥ß«ä¦Ò¡G
¤Ñ¥Dµ¹¤F§Ú̳̤jªº·R¡A¨º´N¬O¦Û¥Ñ¡A§Ú̦b«ä·Q¤W¦³µÛ絶¹ïªº¦Û¥Ñ¡C¦A¥[¤W¤Ñ¥Dªº¤j´¼¡A¦b¸U¨Æ¸Uª«¹B§@¤¤¯à¹wª¾¡A´N¨S¦³¹w©wªº¥²n¡A¤]¨S¦³¨ä¦s¦bªº¥i¯à¡C
n°OµÛªº¬O¡A¤Ñ¥D³Ð³y¤F¤H¡A¤£¬O¤ì°¸¡C§Úªº¨Æ©Î¸Ä~Åwªº¨Æ¡A³£¬O¦Û¥Dªº¦æ¬°¡A§Ú̳£¦³³oºØ¤Ñ¥D©Ò¸[½áªº¿ï¾ÜÅv¡C¤Ñ¥D¹wª¾¤F¸Ä~Åwªº¦æ¬°¡A©Ò¥HÍ¢¦³©Ò¦w±Æ¤]¥¼¥iª¾¡FÁöµM§Ú¤£¬O¸¥ý¥Í¡A¨Ã¤£ª¾¹D¥Lªº«H¼ô¯u¼ô°²¡A¤]¤£ª¾¹D¥L©Ò«Hªº¼ô¯u¼ô°²¡C
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¿W¥ß«ä¦Ò
Posted - 2008/6/24 ¤U¤È 12:44:12
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Pooh-Pooh¡G
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§A»¡¡G¡u(¥Î»y¥i¯à¤£ºë¸P¡A¦ý¡A§Ú¬Û«H¤j®a¹ï¦¹³£«Ü¤F¸Ñ©M©ú¥Õ¡A©Ò¥H¤£¸Ôz¤F¡F§_«h¡A§ÚÌ«K³´¤J¤F¡y°ß¿W¸t¸g¡zªº°Q½×)¡v
Áa¨Ï§Ú̳´¤J¡y°ß¿W¸t¸g¡zªº°Q½×¡A¨º¤S¦³¤°»ò°ÝÃD©O¡A¤£¥i¥H¤j®a°Q½×¤@¤U¶Ü¡H
§A»¡¡G¡u¸tÅé¸t¨Æªº¨Ò¤l¥u¬O·Q±j½Õ"«H"©M»P¤Ñ¥D¦P¦æªº«n©Ê¡A¨Ã¤£¬O§_©w©Î©¿²¤¸t¸g©M±Ð·|°V¾Éªº¥²n©Ê¡Cø¦n»~·|!¡v
§Ú¥u«Y·QÁ¿¡A¨S¦³¸t¸g¯u²z°µ°ò¦¡A´N¤£·|©ú¥Õ¸tÅé¸t¨Æ¬O¤°»ò¤@¦^¨Æ¡I«H¥õ¤£¬O³æ¾Ì·Pı¡AÁÙn±¡²zÝ®e¡C¡]§A¥i¥H°µÓ¹êÅç¡A§A¦a°Ý¤Ud¨S¦³¤W¸t¸g¯Z¢A¼}¹D¯Zªº¦Ñ¤H®a¡A°Ý¥L̬°¤°»òn»â¸tÅé¡A¥L̤j¦h¼Æ·|»¡¬O¨D¯¬ºÖ¡B«O¦ö¥¦wµ¥µ¥¤§Ãþªº»¡¸Ü¡C¡^
§A»¡¡G¡u"Å]°±o±Ï"¬O¤Ñ¥Dªº¨Æ¡A»P¤H¥i¤z©O¡H¡v
¬JµM»P¤HµL¤z¡A¸t¸g¤S¨S¦³°O¸ü¡A¨º»ò§Ṳ́S¬°¦ónµû½×¢A§PÂ_¨e¯à§_±o±Ï©O¡Hˤ£¦p§Ú̸۹ê¦a»¡¤@Án¡u§Ú¤£ª¾¹D¡v§a¡I
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¿W¥ß«ä¦Ò
Posted - 2008/6/24 ¤U¤È 12:47:54
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simon¡G
§AÂIª¾Å]°»Ýn®¬§ï¡H¥i¯à¤Ñ¥D¬ð³jÅ]°»P°Êª«¤@¼Ë¤£¥Î®¬§ï´N¥i±oÅ«©O¡IÅ]°¬O¥Î°Êª«¡u¨e¡vªº¡A¥i¯à¯u¬O·|»P°Êª«¤@¼Ë¡C¡]¯Âºé¶Ã²q¡^
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¿W¥ß«ä¦Ò
Posted - 2008/6/24 ¤U¤È 12:54:05
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§A»¡¡G¡u¦b¸U¨Æ¸Uª«¹B§@¤¤¯à¹wª¾¡A´N¨S¦³¹w©wªº¥²n¡A¤]¨S¦³¨ä¦s¦bªº¥i¯à¡C¡v
§A³s¹wª¾»P¹w©w¤§¶¡ªºÃö«Y³£ÁÙ¥¼©ú¥Õ¡A½Ð§A¬Ý¬Ý§Ú©M¥L̤§«eªº°Q½×¦A»¡¡C
§A»¡¡G¡uÁöµM§Ú¤£¬O¸¥ý¥Í¡A¨Ã¤£ª¾¹D¥Lªº«H¼ô¯u¼ô°²¡A¤]¤£ª¾¹D¥L©Ò«Hªº¼ô¯u¼ô°²¡C¡v
¸Ä~Åw»¡«HC¿q¡A©Ò¥H¥L©Ò«Hªº¤@©w¬OC¿q¡A§A¤£¯à»¡¤£ª¾¥L©Ò«Hªº¬O¯u¬O°²¡A§A¤£¯à»¡C¿q¬O°²ªº¡I§A¥u¥i¥H»¡¤£ª¾¹D¥L¬O§_¯u¤ß¬Û«H¡I
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Pooh-Pooh
Posted - 2008/6/24 ¤U¤È 01:11:37
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§A»¡¡G¡u"Å]°±o±Ï"¬O¤Ñ¥Dªº¨Æ¡A»P¤H¥i¤z©O¡H¡v
¬JµM»P¤HµL¤z¡A¸t¸g¤S¨S¦³°O¸ü¡A¨º»ò§Ṳ́S¬°¦ónµû½×¢A§PÂ_¨e¯à§_±o±Ï©O¡Hˤ£¦p§Ú̸۹ê¦a»¡¤@Án¡u§Ú¤£ª¾¹D¡v§a¡I
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Pooh-Pooh
Posted - 2008/6/24 ¤U¤È 01:13:21
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¿W¥ß¥S¡A½Ð§A¤À¨É¤@¤U¬°¤°»ò§An»â¸tÅé©M¨ä¤¤ªº¤ß±o¥i¥H¶Ü?
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¿W¥ß«ä¦Ò
Posted - 2008/6/24 ¤U¤È 11:27:22
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pooh-pooh¡G
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¦p¦³¿³½ì¡A·íµM¥i¥H°Q½×¤@½¡I¡v
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¤p¤
Posted - 2008/6/24 ¤U¤È 11:48:05
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¤p¤
Posted - 2008/6/25 ¤W¤È 12:00:13
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Pooh-Pooh
Posted - 2008/6/25 ¤W¤È 12:13:23
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¤p¤
Posted - 2008/6/25 ¤W¤È 12:19:57
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Pooh-Pooh
Posted - 2008/6/25 ¤W¤È 12:20:59
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Details:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm
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Posted - 2008/6/25 ¤W¤È 12:23:49
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simon
Posted - 2008/6/25 ¤W¤È 12:57:56
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Posted - 2008/6/25 ¤W¤È 02:01:09
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Posted - 2008/6/25 ¤W¤È 02:02:58
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pooh-pooh:
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