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simon


Posted -
2005/3/14 ¤U¤È 05:24:59

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¨º¥¼©ú¥Õ´N¬Û«Hªº¤H¡A¥i¯à¤]¦³ºÖ¡A¦ý§Ú¥²¶·©Ó»{¡A§Ú¨S¦³³o¥÷ºÖ®ð¡C

edward


Posted -
2005/3/14 ¤U¤È 07:52:50

¦èº¡¥S¡G

¤Ñ¥Dªº¡u¦®·N¡v©Mª¼±B°×¶ù®É¥Nªº¤÷¥À¤§¡u©R¡v¤£¦P¡C¤H¬O¥H¥~¦bªº¤è¦¡¡A³W½d¨ä¥L¤Hªº¦Û¥Ñ¡F¦ý¤Ñ¥D«o¯à¤º¦b¦a±À°Ê¤Hªº·N§Ó¡C

¨Ò¦p¦b§Ú­Ì¨C¤Ñªº¡qªì¦æ¤u¤Ò¡rë¤å¡A¬O³o¼Ë¬è¨Dªº¡G

¡u¥ñ±æ§^¥D¡A§Úµ¥¥\¦æ¡AÃd·Ó¥ý¤§¡A»²Ál«e¶i¡C¨Ï§Ú¤Z½ÑëªÌ¡B¦æªÌ¡A±`¦Û¥D»F¡A¤S¿à¥D°W¡C¬°§Úµ¥¥D°ò·þ¡C¨È©s¡C¡v

¤Ñ¥D¬O½Ñµ½ªº®Ú·½¡C¤H¦b­Û²z¤W©ÒºÙ±o¤W¬O¡uµ½¦æ¡vªº¦æ¬°¡A©TµM¬O¸g¦Û¥Ñ·N§Óªº¤¹³\¡CµM¦Ó¡A³o¥÷¤¹³\¥ç¬O¤Ñ¥D¦b¸U¥@¤§«e´N¤w¨M©w±À°Ê¡]±N¥¦¥Ñ¡u¼ç¯à¡vÂà¤Æ¬°¡u¹ê²{¡v¡^ªº¡C¤H«ö¨ä¥»©Ê¡A¬Oµ½¦æªº¦¸­n­ì¦]¡A¤Ñ¥D«o¬O¸Óµ½¦æªº²Ä¤@¦]¡C¬O¬G¡A¨âªÌ¤§¶¡¡A¨Ã¨S¦³¯u¥¿ªº©èIJ¡C

edward


Posted -
2005/3/14 ¤U¤È 08:17:32

¥S©Ò«üªº¡A¡u¤p§Ì©M±Ð·|ªº¬Ýªk¡v¡G

»¡ªk¤G¡G¡u¤Ñ¥D¦V¤@¦Ê¤H©Û¤â¡A¨Ï¤H­Ì¨«¦VÍ¢¡C¦ýµ²ªG¦³¤H¨«¦VÍ¢¡A¦³¤H¤£¨«¡F«eªÌ¤W¤Ñ°ê¡A«áªÌ¤U¦aº»¡C¡v³o¬Oedward©M±Ð·|ªº·Qªk¡C

½Ð®e¤p§Ì¼á²M¡G­Y¤Ñ¥D¦V¤@¦Ê¤H©Û¤â¡A¨Ã¡]¥H¦³®Ä®¦Ãd¡^¡u¨Ï¡v¤H­Ì¨«¦VÍ¢¡A¨º»ò¡A¸Ó¤@¦Ê­Ó¤H³£·|¥þ¼Æ¤W¤Ñ°ê¡A¤@­Ó¤]¤£¥¢¸¨¡C

¦]¦¹¡A¥Sªº¡u»¡ªk¤G¡v¨Ã«D¤p§Ì©Î±Ð·|ªº¬Ýªk¡C

¤p§Ì©Ò°O±oªº¥Õ©Ô©_²§ºÝ¡A¬O¥D±i¡G¤Ñ¥D½çµ¹¤H¦æµ½ªº¯à¤O¡A¦ý¹ê»Ú¦æµ½»P§_¬O¨ú¨M©ó¤H¦Û¤v¡C¦]¦¹¡A­Y¦³¨â­Ó¤H¼Z®ü¦Ó¤Ñ¥D¦V¥L­Ì¦ù¤âÀç±Ï¡A¥Õ©Ô©_»{¬°±o±ÏªÌ©M¥¢±ÏªÌªº¤À§O¡A¬O¦b©ó§A¬O§_®»¦í¤Ñ¥Dªº¸Ó°¦¤â¡C¤Ñ¥D¹ï©ó¤H¬O§_·|§@¥X¿n·¥ªº¦^À³¡A¬OµL°Ê©ó°J¤Î·R²ö¯à§Uªº®ÇÆ[ªÌ¡C

¶Ç²Î¯«¾Ç»{¬°¡G±o±ÏªÌ»P¥¢±ÏªÌªº¤À§O¡A©TµM¬O¥]¬A¥L­Ì¨âªÌªº¦Û¥Ñ§à¾Ü¡C¦ý§@¥X¥¿½T§à¾Ü¡]¿ï¾Ü¤Ñ¥D¡^ªº¨º¦ì¡A½T¹ê¬O¦³µÛ§ó¤jªº®¦Ãd¢w¢w¤Ñ¥D¹ï¥L¦³§ó¤jªº·R¡C¦Ó§@¥X¿ù»~§à¾Üªº¨º¤H¡A«h¬O¦]µÛ¦Û¤vªº¹L¿ù¦Ó³à¤`¡C

edward


Posted -
2005/3/14 ¤U¤È 08:32:20

®Ú¾Ú¶Ç²Î¯«¾Ç¡A¤Ñ¥D¤£¥i¯à¬O¡u´c¡vªº¥D¦]¡C¿ù»~ªº­Û²z§à¾Ü¬O·½©ó¤H¦Û¤v¡C¤Ñ¥D®e³\¤H¦b¹B¥Î¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó¤W¡A¦³¥Ç¿ùªº¥i¯à¡F¦ý³y¦¨¿ù»~ªº¡A¬O¤H¦Û¤v¡C

¨º»ò¡A³à¤`ªÌ¬O§_¦]¬°¨S¦³¤Ñ¥Dªº®¦Ãd¦Óű¦¨¤j¿ù¡H§Ú­Ì»{¬°¡G¤Ñ¥Dµ¹¤F¥L­Ì¥R°÷ªº®¦Ãd¡A¦ý¥L­Ì«o§â¥¦¶d­t¤F¡C¦]¦¹¤£¥i»¡¤Ñ¥D¬O¡u¤£¸q¡v¡C

¤Ñ¥D±Ð«H¥õªÖ©w¡u¥R°÷®¦Ãd¡v©M¡u¦³®Ä®¦Ãd¡vªº¦s¦b¡A¦ý¨âªÌ¤§¶¡ªº¨ãÅé¤À§O¦ó¦b¡A«h¦p¤W©Ò­z¡A¬O·¥²`¶øªº¯«¾ÇÃøÃD¡C

§Ú­Ì¤£·|¦]¬°¡u²z´¼¥¼¯à§¹µ½¦a¸ÑÄÀ¡v¡A¦Ó±N·í«Hªº¹D²z©ñ±ó¡C¬°²z©Ê¨Ó»¡¡A¥i¯à¥Õ©Ô©_©M¥[º¸¤åªº¾Ç»¡§ó¬°¡u³s³e¡v¡]coherent¡^¡A¦ý§Ú­Ì»{¬°¥¦­Ì¤£¯à»P¸t¸g±Ò¥Üªº¯u²z¬Û¨ó½Õ¡C

edward


Posted -
2005/3/14 ¤U¤È 08:41:29

¡u¥¼©ú¥Õ´N¬Û«H¡v¡A¤j·§¬O¥Hµ{«×¦Ó¨¥§a¡C

¨C­Ó¤Hªº²z´¼¤]¦³¤£¦Pªº¡u«H¥õ¡v©³½u¡C¦ýÁ¿¨ì§À¡A§Ú­Ì»Ý­n¦^µª¤@­Ó°ÝÃD¡G¨ì©³§Ú­Ì¬O«H¤Ñ¥D¦Û¤v©Ò±Ò¥ÜªºÍ¢¡A§í©Î¬O¥Ñ§Ú­Ì²z©Ê©Ò¦Û¤v«Øºcªº¤Ñ¥D¡H

§Ú­Ì¬O¥H­õ¾Ç§@¬°¦Û¤vªº¯«¾Ç¡A§í©Î¬O¥H¯«¾Ç§@¬°¦Û¤vªº­õ¾Ç¡H

simon


Posted -
2005/3/14 ¤U¤È 09:19:29

edward,

Á¦^À³¡C¦ý§Aªº¦^À³¡AÁÙ¬O¦³³\¦h¸òµÛªº°ÝÃD¡C
¥ý¶°¤¤°Q½×¤@­Ó§a¡C

§A»¡¡G¡u¤H«ö¨ä¥»©Ê¡A¬Oµ½¦æªº¦¸­n­ì¦]¡A¤Ñ¥D«o¬O¸Óµ½¦æªº²Ä¤@¦]¡C¡v

¨º»ò¡A¡u¤Ñ¥D¦V§Ú©Û¤â¡A¦Ó§Ú¨«¦VÍ¢¡C¡v©M§A»¡ªº¸Ü¬O§¹¥þ§k¦Xªº¡C¡u¤Ñ¥D©Û¤â¡v¬O²Ä¤@¦]¡A¡u§Ú¨«¦V¥L¡v¬O²Ä¤G¦]¡A§Y«ö¥»©Ê¦Ó¦æ¡C

»¡ªk¤G¡G¡u¤Ñ¥D¦V¤@¦Ê¤H©Û¤â¡A¨Ï¤H­Ì¨«¦VÍ¢¡C¦ýµ²ªG¦³¤H¨«¦VÍ¢¡A¦³¤H¤£¨«¡F«eªÌ¤W¤Ñ°ê¡A«áªÌ¤U¦aº»¡C¡v³o¬Oedward©M±Ð·|ªº·Qªk¡C

¤@¦Ê¤§¼Æ¡A¥u¬O¤ñ³ë¡C§A¬O¬Û«H¥²¦³¤H¤U¦aº»ªº¡A©Ò¥H¡A¤Ñ¥D¥²µM¤£·|¹ï¥@¤W©Ò¦³¤H¬I¡u¦³®Ä®¦Ãd¡v¡C¤]´N¬O»¡¡A¤Ñ¥D¹ï¬Û·í¼Æ¶qªº¤H¥u¬I¦æ¡u¨¬°÷®¦Ãd¡v¡C

§ó²M´·ªº»¡ªk¡G
¡u¤Ñ¥D¦V¤@¦Ê¤H¬I¨¬°÷®¦Ãd¡A¨Ï¤H­Ì¨«¦VÍ¢¡C¦ýµ²ªG¦³¤H¨«¦VÍ¢¡A¦³¤H¤£¨«¡F«eªÌ¤W¤Ñ°ê¡A«áªÌ¤U¦aº»¡C¡v³o¬Oedward©M±Ð·|ªº·Qªk¡C

³o­Ó»¡ªk©M¡u¤Ñ¥D¦V§Ú©Û¤â¡A¦Ó§Ú¨«¦VÍ¢¡C¡v°ò¥»¤W¬O¬Û¦Pªº¡C

angelo


Posted -
2005/3/14 ¤U¤È 11:26:31

Hi, Edward¤Î¦U¦ì¯«¾Ç·R¦nªÌ¡G
§ÚÀH·N¬Ý¨ì³oùتº¼ö¯P°Q½×¡A¯uªº«D±`ºë±m
§Ú¤]·Q¦P¤j®a¤À¨É¤@¤U

¤Ñ¥D±Ð±Ð²z¡G¡u¦Û¥Ñ´N¬O¦æ°Ê©Î¤£¦æ°Ê¡A©M¦Û¥D¦a±Ä¨ú¦æ°Êªº¯à¤O¡C·í¦Û¥Ñ¬O¥H¤Ñ¥D¡B¦Ü°ªªº¬üµ½¬°¨ÌÂk®É¡A·|¨Ï¤Hªº¦æ¬°¹F­P§¹¬ü¡C¡v

¡u¦Û¥Ñ¨Ï¦æ¬°¦³¯u¥¿¤Hªº¯S¦â¡A¨Ï¤H¹ï¦Û¤vªº¦æ¬°­t³d¡A¦]¬°³o¬O«ö¦Û¤vªº·NÄ@¦Ó§¹¦¨ªº¡C¤H¦Û¥Ñªº¦æ¬°½T¬OÂk¦Û¤v©Ò¦³¡C¡v

§ÚÅé·|¨ì³o¦Û¨Mªº¯à¤O¨Ï¤HÃþ¹ï¥Dªº¦^À³§ó¦³·N¸q¡A¦Û¥Ñ¨Ï¡u¨«¦V¤Ñ¥D¡vªº¦æ°Ê§óÅã±o¬Ã¶Q¤Î¬üÄR¡A¦]¬°¬O¥X©ó¦Û¤vªº·NÄ@Âk¦VÍ¢¡C

¦Û¥Ñ¤@µü¥i¬O¤¤©Êªº¡A¦ý§Ú·Q«H¥õ¤W©Ò´£¤Îªº¦Û¥Ñ¸û¦h«ü¯u¥¿ªº¦Û¥Ñ¡A§Y²æÂ÷¤HÃþ¨p¼¤°¾±¡ªº¥£Áõ¦¡§ô¿£¡A¡u¤H¶V¬O¬°µ½¡A¶V¬O¦Û¥Ñ¡v¡A±q¬Y¨¤«×¬Ý¡A³o¦Û¥Ñ¬O¦³¤@©wªº­­¨îªº¡A³o­­¨î¬O¬°µ½¡A¥ç¥i¥H»¡¡A·í¤H­nÅé·|¯u¥¿ªº¦Û¥Ñ¡A¤H»Ý­n©ú¥Õ¦Û¤vªº­­¨î¡A·í¤H¶VÁ¾µê©Ó»{¦Û¤vªº¤£¨¬»P­­¨î®É¡A¤H«K·|¶V¦Û¥Ñ¡C¦b³oÁ¾µêªº¤ßºA¤U¡A¤H«Ü¦ÛµM¦a¨«¦Vµ½ªº¤è¦V¡A§Ú·Q¹Lµ{«K¬O¯u¥¿ªº¦Û¥Ñ¡C¥i¥H»¡¡A­­¨î¤£³æ¨S¦³´î¤Ö¦Û¥Ñ¡A­­¨î¦³®É¥i§ó¬ðÅã¯u¥¿ªº¦Û¥Ñ¡Cªí­±¬O¤£¦Û¥Ñªº¡A©¹©¹¬O³Ì¦Û¥Ñªº¡F¬Ý¦ü¦Û¥Ñªº¡A

¦Ó§ÚÅé·|¤Ñ¥D¥HÍ¢·R±¡ªº´¼¼z¡A¤@¦­¤w¹ï§Ú­Ìªº©Ê®æ©M¯à¤O¬Û·í»{ÃÑ¡A¦ÓÍ¢­Y¤@¦­ª¾¹D§Ú­Ì·|¨«¨ì¨ºùØ¡A³oÀ³¨Ã¤£©_©Ç¡C¦]¬°Í¢¶V·R§Ú­Ì¡A«K¶V¤F¸Ñ§Ú­Ì¡A³o¤F¸Ñ¥]¬A§Ú­Ìªº¤@¤Á¡A®É¶¡¤ÎªÅ¶¡¡A¦æ¬°»P«ä·Q¡C

±¡§Î´N¹³¤@¦ì¥À¿Ë¡A¥Ñ©ó¹ï«Ä¤l¬Û·í¤F¸Ñ¡A¤@¦­«Kª¾¹D¥L·|¨ì¹C¼Ö³õª±¤@·|¤~¦^®a¦Y¶º¡AªGµM«Ä¤l¯uªº³o¼Ë°µ¤F¡A¥À¿Ëª¾¹D¡A¬O¦]¬°¦o·R«Ä¤l¡A¤F¸Ñ¥L¡A¦Ó«Ä¤l¤´µM¥i¥H»¡¬O¦³¦Û¥Ñ¿ï¾Ü¦^®aÁÙ¬O¤£¦^®aªº¡CµL­­´¼¼zªº¤Ñ¥D¡A¹wª¾¥u¬O¦]¬°¥X©óÍ¢¹ï¤HÃþµL­­ªº·R¥H¤ÎµL­­²`¹ýªº¤F¸Ñ¡C

edward


Posted -
2005/3/15 ¤U¤È 06:59:52

¦èº¡¥S¡G

­Y®¦Ãd¥i¥H³Q¡u¶q¤Æ¡vªº¸Ü¡A¤Ñ¥D¦V¥þ³¡¤@¦Ê¤H©Ò¬Iªº®¦Ãd¡A¥H¶q¦Ó¨¥¡A¦Ü¤Ö¥]¬A¨¬°÷®¦Ãd¡C

µM¦Ó¡A¦b¨Æ¹ê¤W¨«¦V¤Ñ¥Dªº¤H¨­¤W¡A¥L­Ì¬O§_¯Âºé»â¨ü¤F¡u¨¬°÷®¦Ãd¡v¡H

­Y¥L­Ì¥u»â¨ü¤F¡u¨¬°÷®¦Ãd¡v¡A¨º´N·N¨ýµÛ¦b¨¬°÷®¦Ãd¡u¥H¥~¡v¡A¦³¥t¥~ªº­ì¦]¡]§Y¡G¡u¦Û¥Ñ·N§Óªº¥¿½T¨M©w¡v¡^¡A«P¨Ï¥LÂk¦V¤Ñ¥D¡C

­Y¦Û¥Ñ·N§Óªº¥¿½T¨M©w¡A¬O¥Ñ¤Ñ¥Dªº®¦Ãd©Ò±À°Ê¡A¨º´N¬O¡u¦³®Ä®¦Ãd¡v¡C

­Y¸Ó¶µ¨M©w¡A¬O¯Âºé¥X©ó¤H¦Û¤v¡A¦Ó¤£¬O¥X©ó¤Ñ¥Dªº®¦Ãd¡A¨º´N¦¨¤F¥Õ©Ô©_¥D¸q¡C

simon


Posted -
2005/3/15 ¤U¤È 10:16:06

edward,

§Aªº¨£¸Ñ¡A·U»¡·U©_¤F¡C¹ï§Ú¨Ó»¡¡A¤]¬O¤@ºØ¡u²§ºÝ¡v¡I·íµM¡A¹ï§Ú¬O¡u²§ºÝ¡v¡A¤£µ¥¦P¹ï±Ð·|¬O¡u²§ºÝ¡v¡C

§Aªº·N«ä¬O§_¦p¤U¡G

¤@¡B¤Ñ¥D¦V©Ò¦³¤H¬I¡u¨¬°÷®¦Ãd¡v¡C
¤G¡B¤Ñ¥D¤S¥H®¦Ãd±À°Ê³¡¤À¤H¡]¤£¬O©Ò¦³¤H¡^¡A¥O¥L­Ìªº¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó§@¥X¥¿½T¿ï¾Ü¦ÓÂk¦V¤Ñ¥D¡A³o­Ó±¡ªp¡A´Nµ¥¦P¡u¦³®Ä®¦Ãd¡v¡C
¤T¡B¥t¤@³¡¤Àªº¤H¡A¤Ñ¥D¨Ã¨S¦³±À°Ê¥L­Ìªº¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó§@¥¿½T¿ï¾Ü¡A©Ò¥H¥L­Ì¤£¨«¦V¤Ñ¥D¡A¨Ã­n¤U¦aº»¡C



§A¯uªº³o¼Ë·Q¶Ü¡HÁÙ¬O§Ú»~¸Ñ¤F§A¡H¤S©Î§Aªí¹F¤í¨Î¡H

§Ú·Q°Ý¡G­Y¹ê±¡¦p¦¹¡A¤£¯à¨«¦V¤Ñ¥Dªº¤H¡A¦ó¸o¤§¦³¡H¿ù»~¥þ¦]¤Ñ¥D¨S¦³±À°Ê¥L­Ì§@¥¿½T¿ï¾Ü¡C

è°¥J


Posted -
2005/3/16 ¤W¤È 12:18:46

§Ú¤]¦P·N«Üºë±m,¦Ó¥B§Ú¤]ı±o¦èº¡¥S§ì¨ì­«ÂI.
§Ú¶}©l©ú¥Õ¬°¦ó±q«e¨È¾ú¤s¤j§Q¨È¾Ç¬£»P¦w´£¬ù°ò¨È¾Ç¬£¬°¦ó·|¦p¦¹¼@¯Pª§½×,¤S©Î¬O«á´Áªº,­C¿q·|,¹D©ú·|©M¤èÀÙ·|ªº¯«¾Ç®aªºª§Ä³.
¤£ªý¤j®a,½ÐÄ~Äò.

simon


Posted -
2005/3/16 ¤W¤È 11:20:51

è°¥J¡Bangelo¡A

¬JµM§A­Ìı±oºë±m¡A¬°¬Æ»ò¤£¥´½à­Ó¿úµ¹§Ú¶R°s³Ü¡H
¥i¯à§Ú©MedwardÀ³·d­Ó¦¬¶Oºô¤W½×¾Â¡AÆ[²³¨C¤»¬í¦¬¤@¨¤¡C

Augustine


Posted -
2005/3/16 ¤U¤È 01:42:27

"¤@¡B¤Ñ¥D¦V©Ò¦³¤H¬I¡u¨¬°÷®¦Ãd¡v¡C" True.
Here the sufficient grace is only a certain power, a potency (as regards to the act of final glory) which is in itself unknown by reason alone.

For example, we wouldn't know by reason a man CAN swim (potency) unless he actually swims (act), but we cannot deny (as the nominalists, positivists do) the ability for a man to swim just because he is not swimming right now, or hasn't been seen swimming.

The real ability for all to avoid sin and die in grace is a revealed dogma. Since no one is sure of his salvation in this life, this ability cannot be shown by its Act---Glory, it remains obscure but we know it exists by revelation.

"¤G¡B¤Ñ¥D¤S¥H®¦Ãd±À°Ê³¡¤À¤H¡]¤£¬O©Ò¦³¤H¡^¡A¥O¥L­Ìªº¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó§@¥X¥¿½T¿ï¾Ü¦ÓÂk¦V¤Ñ¥D¡A³o­Ó±¡ªp¡A´Nµ¥¦P¡u¦³®Ä®¦Ãd¡v¡C" True.

"¤T¡B¥t¤@³¡¤Àªº¤H¡A¤Ñ¥D¨Ã¨S¦³±À°Ê¥L­Ìªº¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó§@
¥¿½T¿ï¾Ü¡A©Ò¥H¥L­Ì¤£¨«¦V¤Ñ¥D¡A¨Ã­n¤U¦aº»¡C"

"¨Ã¨S¦³±À°Ê..." is true as regards the final outcome of damnation, since no one will be saved without God's first Election (before the First Cause and Mover premoves secondary causes to salutary acts). However, it is revealed that God has given Sufficient Grace to all.

Therefore, ¥L­Ì¤£¨«¦V¤Ñ¥D is not caused by the divine permission for these reprobates to sin but because the reprobates themselves refusing the sufficient grace offered to them.

Does the reprobates die impenitent "necessarily" even God has not elected them (by decreeing pre-ordaining them to salvation)?

YES, they will die impenitent (due to a necessity of consequence), as regards their end. If God didn't elected Mr. A, Mr. A couldn't have been saved.

NO, they will not die impenitent necessarily
(due to necessity of consequent). Since they still possess the "power" to avoid sin and die in grace because they have sufficient grace. (Although they will NOT avoid that; but they are ABLE to avoid that)

Âk¤@

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2005/3/16 ¤U¤È 01:56:48

è°¥J®v¥S¡G§Úı±o¦èº¡¤Î·R¼wµØ¥S¤ñ«e¤H§ó«l¡A¦]¬°·í®É¨S¦³¹qµø¡A¤S¤£¥i¥H¤Wºô¡A¦ÛµM±o¶¢­Ý·Q¨ì¦³ËݽÆÂø±oËݽÆÂø¡F¦Ó¨â¦ì¦b¸U¤d»¤´b¤§¤U¤´µM¥i¥HËݦ³«l¡A¨ØªA¨ì·¥ÂI¡C
¦èº¡¥S¡G¦¬¿ú³£­nÚ»¡A¦³½t¨£­±¦A¥æ°s¿ú¡C¤£ªý¨â¦ì¡A½ÐÄ~Äò¡T

è°¥J


Posted -
2005/3/16 ¤U¤È 06:29:21

¦b¤U¬O°s®{¤@¦W,®Õ¤º®t¤£¦h¤HºÉ¬Òª¾,¦p¥S¥u¬O·Q³Ü¤@ªM,§Ì¬O·íµM©^³­ªº.°s¿ú´N§K¤F§a.

simon


Posted -
2005/3/16 ¤U¤È 10:55:23

Augustine,

§Aªº½×ÂI¦³º|¬}¡A¦ý§Ú·Qµ¥¤@µ¥edward¡A¬Ý¬Ý¥L·|§_¦^À³¡A¤~¤@¨Ö°Q½×¡C

è°¥J¡G
«O­«¨­Åé¡A¦h³Ü°sµL¯q¡C

Âk¤@¡G
§Ú¤]¦Ûı§bÀY§b¸£¡A¤H¤H¼ö¯P½Í½×¡u¤jªø¤µ¡v¡A§Ú³º¤£¬Ý¹qµø¡A¦b³o¨à©M¤H°Q½×¯«¾Ç¡C¯u¬Oªº¡C

è°¥J


Posted -
2005/3/17 ¤W¤È 09:32:52

¦èº¡¡G

½Ð©ñ¤ß¡A§Ì¦n°s¡A¦ý¤£³gªM¡D
¤@­Ó¤ë¤]¥¼¥²·|³Ü¤@²~¡D
¾Ú¬ã¨sÅã¥Ü¡A¨C¤é³Ü¤@¤pªM°s¹ï¨­Å馳¤£¤ß¦n³B¡D
¦ý©_©Çªº¬O¡A§Ú­Ì¤j³¡¥÷¥qÅM¨C¤Ñ¤]·|³Ü¤@ÂI¡¨ª«²z¡¨¤Wªº°s¡A¦ý¥L­Ìªº¤ßŦ¯f¤ñ²v¦n¹³¤£¤Ó§C¡A¥i¯à­È±o°µ¥t¤@­Ó¬ã¨s¡A¬Ý¬Ý¬O®³¨Ó°µ¸t¦åªº°s¦³°ÝÃD¡AÁÙ¬O¦³¨ä¥L¦]¯À¡D

Augustine


Posted -
2005/3/17 ¤U¤È 01:50:17

This is a passage by Ott (the Fundamentals) which can help a lot in clarifying terms:

GOD, BY AN ETERNAL RESOLVE OF HIS WILL, PREDESTINES CERTAIN MEN, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR FORESEEN SINS, TO ETERNAL REJECTION (De fide)
(viz. POSITIVE REPROBATION)

The reality of Reprobation is not formally defined, but it is the general teaching of the Church.

5) POSITIVE REPROBATION

Heretical Predestinationism in its various forms (the Southern Gallic priest Lucidus in the 5th century; the monk Gottschalk in the 9th century, according to reports of his opponents, which, however, find no confirmation in his recently re-discovered writings; Wycliffe, Hus, and esp. Calvin), teaches a positive predetermination to sin, and an unconditional Predestination to the eternal punishment of hell, that is, without consideration of future demerits. This was rejected as false doctrine by the Particular Synods of Orange, Quiercy & Valence and by the Council of Trent. Unconditioned positive Reprobation leads to a denial of the universality of the Divine Desire for salvation, and of the Redemption, and contradicts the Justice and Holiness of God as well as the freedom of man.

According to the teaching of the Church, there is a conditioned positive Reprobation, that is, it occurs with consideration of foreseen future demerits (post et propter praevisa demerita). The conditional nature of Positive Reprobation is demanded by the generality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. This excludes God's desiring in advance the damnation of certain men (cf. 1 Tim 2:4, Ezek 33:11, 2 Pet 3:9) . . .

6) NEGATIVE REPROBATION

In the question of Reprobation, the Thomist view favours not an absolute, but only a negative Reprobation. This is conceived by most Thomists as non-election to eternal bliss (non-electio), together with the Divine resolve to permit some rational creatures to fall into sin, and thus by their own guilt to lose eternal salvation. In contrast to the absolute Positive Reprobation of the Predestinarians, Thomists insist on the:
a) universality of the Divine Resolve of Salvation and Redemption,
b) the allocation of sufficient graces to the reprobate, and
c) the freedom of man's will.

(Here is Simon's query:)

However, it is difficult to find an intrinsic concordance between unconditioned non-election and the universality of the Divine Resolve of salvation. In practice, the unconditioned negative Reprobation of the Thomists involves the same result as the unconditioned positive Reprobation of the heretical Predestinarians, since outside Heaven and Hell there is no third final state.

Like the Resolve of Predestination the Divine Resolve of Reprobation is immutable, but, without special revelation, its incidence is unknown to men.

Augustine


Posted -
2005/3/17 ¤U¤È 01:59:14

Put in a simple way:

How God really wills the salvation of all men if He (without forseeing their sins) do not choose the non-elect:negatively reprobated?

If God's non-election does not positively
causes
a man's sin, this non-election, nevertheless, has the same consequence as when God predestining him to sin (which is false): the man goes to Hell.

simon


Posted -
2005/3/17 ¤U¤È 02:55:07

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edward


Posted -
2005/3/17 ¤U¤È 11:05:02

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edward


Posted -
2005/3/17 ¤U¤È 11:06:01

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edward


Posted -
2005/3/17 ¤U¤È 11:16:22

¦b¤W­z¦CÁ|ªº¤@¦Ê¤H¨Ò¤l¤¤¡A¨ä¤¤¤T¤Q­Ó¤H©Ò¾Ö¦³ªº¡u¨¬°÷®¦Ãd¡ÏÂk¦V¤Ñ¥Dªº¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó¡v¡A¨ä¹ê¤£´N¬Oµ¥©ó¡u¦³®Ä®¦Ãd¡v¶Ü¡H

Augustine


Posted -
2005/3/18 ¤W¤È 09:17:08

Dr. Edward: "¤H¬O­º¥ý­I±ó¤F¤Ñ¥D¡AÍ¢¤~·|±N¥Lìè±ó¡C"

Do you mean positive or negative reprobation(ìè±ó)?
Of course, God punishes only after foreseen demerits. But is it true that He allows the reprobates to sin (negative reprobation) after their foreseen (by scientia media, as Molina held) demerits?

Augustine


Posted -
2005/3/18 ¤W¤È 09:24:33

Simon,
"¤T¡B¨ä¾l¤K¤Q¤H¡A¤Ñ¥D¨Ã¨S¦³±À°Ê¥L­Ìªº¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó§@¥¿½T¿ï¾Ü¡C¦ý·í¤¤¦³¤T¤Q¤H¡A¯àÂk¦V¤Ñ¥D¡C¥L­Ì¾aªº¬O¡u¨¬°÷®¦Ãd¡v©M¡u¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó¡v¦¨¨Æ¡C"

This (並沒有推動) I don't agree: again, no one chooses God unless chosen (moved suavely, without violating created free will of the secondary cause) by God first in the order of causality.

Thus I say with Edward, the good decision¡u¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó¡v makes is caused by God's efficacious grace also. So what God gave this person is not merely sufficient but efficacious.

simon


Posted -
2005/3/18 ¤U¤È 02:04:10

edward,

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