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kp
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Posted -
2006/6/1 下午 06:00:35
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Simon 兄, Simon Patrick 兄,
說" Universal Catholic Church." [普世天主教會] 這用詞. 首先當然要說清楚的是這只是一個日常用語layman term. 這並不是正统的神學用詞, catholic本身就是universal 的意思.重複使用兩個相同的用詞是不需要的(redundant). 正统上, 用Universal Church[普世教會] 或用 Catholic Church[天主教會] 己足夠, 無需畫蛇添足.
不過Universal Catholic Church”普世天主教會” 一詞其實在日常用語亦相當常普遍, 一般來說是形容一個集合全地球不同地點教會(particular Church) 而又屬於天主教的總名稱. 舉例說, 在這個網頁 http://www.stewardshiprockford.org/ca/combined.html 上的美國Rockford diocese教區要為全球天主教籌備經費, 他們便使用了Universal Catholic Church 一詞.
Universal 是地理上的識別 (geographical) . Catholic 是宗派上的識別 (denominational) .
(關於universal church vs. particular church 的分別 可參考教理No.832-835)
但話說回來, 其實Roman Catholic Church 也是屬於這類不大正统又常用的用詞.
天主教會其實不止只有羅馬的拉丁傳統(Latin Rite) , 還有屬於東方禮教會的 Eastern Catholic Church. 好像Catholic Armenian, Chaldeans, Catholic Copts, Ethiopians, Maronites, Catholic Syrians, Catholic church of the Malabar rites等嚴格來說都不是Roman, 但這些教會卻完完全全是我們天主教的一份子.
Kp想Universal Catholic Church這用詞大概是一個嘗試比Roman Catholic Church較政治政確些, 卻又不完全政治政確的用詞吧了.
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simon
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Posted -
2006/6/1 下午 06:09:25
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kpㄩ
斕挲ㄩ☆奻翋眕苖腔椅霛餞鴦妏蚚稛膺譎繚腔倗萊璇藤, 餞鴦眕癖馞綉薆坻?, 妏坻?餞鴦鮋�梛檜嬮鷜抻�𩂰督��(universal catholic church)★
饒𢏐ㄛ斕腔砩佷岆瘁⺼狟ㄩ
價飭諒𩂰祥宖黺毞翋諒𩂰﹝
筍價飭諒諒芺岆鮋毞翋諒𩂰督�捸�
岆稛?砩佷�嶂�
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simon
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Posted -
2006/6/1 下午 06:27:09
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KP：
你說：「上主以祂的慈愛繼續使用這群迷路的兄弟姊妹，繼續以聖靈帶領他們，使他們繼續為普世天主教教會服務。」
你是意思是否如下：
基督教會不屬於天主教會。
但基督教教徒正為天主教教會服務。
是這個意思嗎？
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KP
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Posted -
2006/6/5 下午 05:25:43
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Simon 兄,
不止其他基督徒, 就連其他基督教教會也是為天主唯一的教會服務
參考Pope John Paul II encyclical “Ut Unum Sint”:
7. "The Lord of the Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of his grace on behalf of us sinners. In recent times he has begun to bestow more generously upon divided Christians remorse over their divisions and a longing for unity. Everywhere, large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day a movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. Taking part in this movement, which is called ecumenical, are those who invoke the Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Saviour. They join in not merely as individuals but also as members of the corporate groups in which they have heard the Gospel, and which each regards as his Church and, indeed, God's. And yet almost everyone, though in different ways, longs that there may be one visible Church of God, a Church truly universal and sent forth to the whole world that the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of God".………
……..10. In the present situation of the lack of unity among Christians and of the confident quest for full communion, the Catholic faithful are conscious of being deeply challenged by the Lord of the Church. The Second Vatican Council strengthened their commitment with a clear ecclesiological vision, open to all the ecclesial values present among other Christians. The Catholic faithful face the ecumenical question in a spirit of faith.
The Council states that the Church of Christ "subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him", and at the same time acknowledges that "many elements of sanctification and of truth can be found outside her visible structure. These elements, however, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism towards Catholic unity".11
"It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church".12
教理838說其他基督徒團體和天主教的關係是肯定確實卻並不完美 :
a “CERTAIN” although imperfect communion with the Catholic Church.
教理 819 則說其他基督徒團體的權力源自天主教 :
Christ's Spirit uses these Churches(i.e. other Christian groups) and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.
而教理846-848則論述 Outside the Church there is no salvation
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simon
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Posted -
2006/6/6 下午 10:45:17
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KP,
如你所說：「Outside the Church there is no salvation」
也如你所說：「基督教教徒也可以得救。」
合理結論：基督教會屬於"the Church"。
這正是我的信念，我信從宗徒傳下來的教會，即現世中所有信基督的教會，因為基督教也是"the Church"一部份。
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martin
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Posted -
2006/6/7 下午 11:32:19
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道教佛教中的"無名基督徒"有得救的可能呢
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Benedcit
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Posted -
2006/6/10 上午 06:13:57
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在舊約中「得救或救贖」是猶太教的一種民族宗教思維，當然也遺傳給了新教(基督宗教)，包括保祿的神學等。但是如果仔細研讀對觀福音三書，福音(好消息)的訊息是比較注重「自救」的，當然《若望福音》的論述就顯得兩個方向並重，也許有人可能認為「救贖」偏重些(聖言成了血肉、活水的隱喻及建聖體血等)。
洗者若翰出現在猶太曠野宣講說：「你們悔改 metanoew吧！因為天國臨近了。」(瑪3:1-2)
耶穌來到加里肋亞，宣講天主的福音，說：「時期已滿，天主的國臨近了，你們悔改metanoew，信從福音吧！」(谷1:14-15; 瑪4:17)
翻譯 metanoew 這個希臘字，也要瞭解它的字根 meta-是「轉變，後續」的意思，noew 是「瞭解，領悟」的意思。耶穌和若翰要求的「悔悟」是一種『革新 - 轉變 - 明悟』過程。由於東方文化(儒釋道)覺得人沒有能力對神明(老天爺)下定義、尋瞭解，幾千年來走的都是「發揚靈慧生命」，要求人們從靈性的領悟中來自救的哲學；謙虛地不敢談論老天爺，不是否認有老天爺。
耶穌不也說過：不是凡向我說『主啊! 主啊!』的人，就能進入天國；而是那承行我在天之父旨意的人，才能進天國。(瑪7:21)
相不相信「得救或救贖」見仁見智似乎不那麼重要，脫下傳統宗教的包袱，『革新 - 轉變 - 明悟』的共識可能會得到更大的共鳴和珍重。
你們說呢？
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