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simon
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 01:45:45
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mitrophanes,
我又要問問你了，你是否認為，佛教的出現，是魔鬼的惡作？
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kp
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 03:21:16
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Simon,
我也要問問你了，你為什麼總認為，佛是出自天主？
天主教的教典在那裡說明你所說的道理?
聖經又在那裡說了這個道理?
你既然認為魔鬼也出自天主, 那你是否不認同天主是"至善"的?
再請問你天主教的教典在那裡說明魔鬼也出自天主?
聖經又在那裡說了這個道理?
對於你所引關神父的事, kp不清楚事實如何, 關神父並沒有加入我們的討論, 如在這裡評論這事對關神父並不公平. 不過kp認為, 個別人士的行為不能道出天主教的教義. 神父也是罪人, 神父也可以犯罪.
如想清清楚楚明白天主的道理, 我們還是看看教會的教導, 看看天主聖言的教導吧.
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kp
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 03:21:58
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容我再重複引一次聖經:
我是上主，你的天主，是我領你出了埃及地、奴隸之所。除我之外，你不可有別的神。不可為你製造任何彷彿天上、或地上、或水中之物的雕像。不可叩拜這些像，也不可敬奉 (出20:2-5)。
經上記載：「你要朝拜上主，你的天主，唯獨事奉祂」(瑪4:10)。
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. Ex 20:2-5; cf. Deut 5:6-9.
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve." Mt 4:10.
佛是不是一個取代天主的"別的神"?
佛像是不是彷彿天上、或地上、或水中之物的雕像?
可不可以叩拜或敬奉這些像?
請各位兄弟姊妹再看一次上引的聖經第一誡便會有清楚答案.
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kp
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 03:22:41
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mitrophanes兄,
佩服, 佩服.
誠如兄所說, 舉意(INTENTIO)為何也不能成為天主教徒拜佛的藉口.
kp認為, 說到底, 拜佛或借助佛法去尋求解脫救贖, 只是因為對天主信心不足, 不相信天主的大能有能力滿足我們一切的需要吧了.
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kp
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 04:01:15
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釋加牟尼真無辜 ?
他從沒有說自己是神（創造者或統治者）。他只是指出脫離痛苦的方法，又勸人行善並要有慈悲心 ?
請問除了天主外, 有誰可以真正為人類"脫離痛苦"?
釋加牟尼要取代天主普渡眾生, 要取代天主為人類"脫離痛苦", 使人類不能享見天主救贖, 使人類不跟從唯一的道路真理生命-耶稣基督.
釋加牟尼還可以算無辜嗎 ????
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kp
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 05:01:44
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更正: 先前所引用天主教教理 112-114 實為教理 2112-2114, 轉貼使用的網站在教理的编号上出錯了,現更正.
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edward
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 06:35:47
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KP兄：
我十分理解你的憂慮。你是擔心外在的某些貌似敬禮（如：佛像）的行為，會對人內心的本來信仰構成威脅。
我不否認它們「可以」有這些效果。
但它們不一定會有該些效果。
因此，這只是一個「相對」的問題。
就好像先前小弟所言，它更似是一個「政治」問題。
誠然，如米兄所言，若大家對佛教的瞭解已十分詳盡，則更能辨別出當中哪些元素和儀式，是與自身的教義相乎，何者乖離。
但當我們自認對別人的認識「十分無知」時，某程度上的交談和體驗本身亦不是壞事。
當然，一個天主教徒，若對天主教的認識「更加無知」，而走到佛教那裡「交談」和「體驗」的話，則徒然增加困惑。
小弟認為：各個宗教本身，都是容許外教徒在某種程度的外在參與的。
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edward
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 06:40:50
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麻醉科醫生算不算是使人脫離痛苦？
任何動詞後加上「真正」一詞，意義將變得十分狹窄。
經收窄後的句子所包含的意義，接著就用「假」一詞來判斷了嗎？
我會傾向於在「真正」這個副詞（adverb）後，加上「在相當程度上」這個規限（constraint）。
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simon
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 06:44:09
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kp，
你問：「你為什麼總認為，佛是出自天主？ 」
佛學中有很多「善」的教導。善出自天主。
你問：「你既然認為魔鬼也出自天主, 那你是否不認同天主是"至善"的?」
那要看「出自」代表甚麼。
我「出自」母親，母親沒有預定我做壞事，只叫我做好人，但我卻選擇做壞事。我做壞事，並沒有改變我是出自母親這個事實。
你問：「再請問你天主教的教典在那裡說明魔鬼也出自天主?
聖經又在那裡說了這個道理?」
如上。
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edward
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 06:48:49
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「拜」一字在中文裡含有多重意義，如「拜師」、「拜相」、「拜年」、「拜山」等。它們一般不指人們把「老師」、「宰相」、「新年」或「山」當作「天主」或「天地至高主宰」那麼「供奉」。希望大家留意......
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simon
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 06:51:02
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kp：
你說：「釋加牟尼要取代天主普渡眾生, 要取代天主為人類"脫離痛苦", 使人類不能享見天主救贖, 使人類不跟從唯一的道路真理生命-耶稣基督.
釋加牟尼還可以算無辜嗎 ????」
請冷靜地看看歷史。
釋加牟尼沒有舊約聖經，也沒有聽過福音。他只是指出脫離痛苦的方向，並叫人行善，抱慈悲心腸；這些都是「善」。以我的概念，一切「善」都是出自天主。
釋加牟尼不認識天主，因此該沒有「取代」天主的意圖。
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simon
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 06:55:19
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kp，
你問：「佛是不是一個取代天主的"別的神"?」
佛根本不是「神」，所以不是「別的神」。這點我重複說了多次。
你問：「佛像是不是彷彿天上、或地上、或水中之物的雕像?」
國父雕像是不是彷彿天上、或地上、或水中之物的雕像?又要禁嗎？
很多教友向聖母像鞠躬，又是拜偶像嗎？聖母像是不是彷彿天上、或地上、或水中之物的雕像？
你問：「可不可以叩拜或敬奉這些像?」
鞠躬有很多含意。我對佛像鞠躬，是表達對一個逝世的慈悲智者的敬意。別人不詢問並錯誤理解，我無能為力。這個情況，有點像部份基督教徒看見天主教徒向聖母像鞠躬，不追問就認定天主教徒拜偶像，基督教徒引用的經文，正是你引用那段。
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MITROPHANES
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 10:53:51
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MITROPHANES
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Posted -
2006/9/13 下午 11:00:08
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//我又要問問你了，你是否認為，佛教的出現，是魔鬼的惡作？ //
依了义言,一切诸有,都是出自上帝之伊科诺弥亚.
若您说的魔鬼,是指那具位格的恶者,则我人似无从证明,其在"佛教出现"这样一个历史事件中所扮演的地位.
若您认为,某有为法,若非出自天主就是出自魔鬼,则是二元见,依照天主教教理而言,这是一种邪见.
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simon
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Posted -
2006/9/14 上午 12:25:31
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mitrophanes,
我沒有二元見或三元見。我只有一元見。
萬事萬物，皆出自天主。
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kp
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Posted -
2006/9/14 下午 05:09:39
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Fr. Romano Guardini, in his classic work The Lord, stated his belief that Buddha would be the greatest challenge to Christ in the modern age. Such an assertion may appear somewhat exaggerated in our age, but Buddhist teachings seriously threaten Christianity’s central doctrines. Because it appears to be peaceful, non-judgmental, and inclusive, its appeal undoubtedly will continue to grow. Buddhism’s refusal to articulate dharma in logical ways and its comfortable insistence on a relativistic approach to knowledge and truth makes dialogue quite difficult. Because it offers a spirituality that is ostensibly free of doctrine and authority, it will attract hungry souls looking for fulfillment and meaning. "For this reason," the Holy Father states, "it is not inappropriate to caution those Christians who enthusiastically welcome certain ideas originating in the religious traditions of the Far East."
Vatican II’s Nostra Aetate (Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions) says, "Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination." It continues, noting that "the Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions" and believes that other religions, in certain ways, "often reflect a ray of that Truth that enlightens all men."
But the document also insists that the Church "proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ ‘the way, the truth, and the life’ (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to himself" (NA 2). While the Council noted that Buddhism may contain a "ray of Truth," it did not endorse appropriation of Buddhist beliefs into Christian practice. Rather, the Council insisted that non-Catholic religions can be fulfilled only through the truths held exclusively by the Catholic faith.
The perennial teachings of the Catholic Church and the Buddhist sangha are inherently incompatible. Whereas God remains completely other, distinct from his creation, higher Buddhist discourse rejects the possibility of any such duality. There can be no Creator/creature distinction in Buddhism.
From an apologetic perspective, dialogue with a Buddhist is hindered almost from the start, as the two great philosophical tools of Christianity—ontology and epistemology—are discarded in Buddhist discourse. That is, if existence itself is untenable, how can creation be proven? If creation is untenable, how can God be proven to exist? So it is vital when entering into dialogue with a Buddhist to understand Buddhist objections to Christian beliefs. In the end, we should remember that the Council of Nicaea taught that men must have one thing before truly becoming a member of the body of Christ: faith.
Shortly before the Holy Father’s visit to St. Patrick’s Cathedral in 1979, the Dalai Lama was greeted there. A monsignor in the receiving line recalls his encounter with the Buddhist patriarch: The Dalai Lama approached him, gazed into his eyes, and queried, "Father, do you know the difference between you and me?"
"No, Your Holiness," replied the monsignor.
"You believe in a personal God," the Dalai Lama observed, "and I do not."
This, above all, marks the difference between Christians and Buddhists. Beyond the rhetoric of "peace," "compatibility," and "the way," there remains one profound difference between Buddha and Jesus: Jesus is God; Buddha is not.
< a href="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0505fea1.asp"> Are Jesus and buddha brothers </a>
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0505fea1.asp
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kp
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Posted -
2006/9/14 下午 05:57:34
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麻醉科醫生算不算是使人脫離痛苦？
麻醉科醫生確能使人脫離痛苦. 但麻醉科醫生沒有說他可以他的『麻醉大法』令人類進入西方極樂世界, 麻醉科醫生沒有說他可以令人類從此免去世間一切苦難, 免去輪廻之罪孽.
佛卻自稱『佛法』有這能力.
能擁有令人免輪廻, 令人進入西方極樂世界, 免去世間一切苦難 ----- 這不是佛認為自已擁有"如神一般"的超自然能力嗎?
佛想普渡眾生, 解一切苦難. ------ 這不是佛認為他是救世主嗎?
般若般羅密多 -- 大智慧到彼岸 ---
什麼是大智慧? 為什麼平常人類需要這個平常人類不擁有的超自然能力--大智慧 才可以到彼岸, 得解脫?
佛是誰? 是救世主嗎?
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kp
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Posted -
2006/9/14 下午 06:15:28
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惡不是出自天主, 請看教會的教導:
catechism 311 God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
教理311 : 無論直接或間接地，天主絕不是倫理惡的原因。不過，為了尊重受造物的自由，祂容許惡發生，並奇妙地從惡中引發出善：
全能的天主……因為祂是至善的，絕不容許任何惡存在於自己的工程中，除非祂有充分的能力和仁愛，足以從惡本身引出善來。
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