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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 03:31:06
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If I could type Chinese faster I would not choose English even though English is clearer to understand.
I don't think the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost is something that makes a faithful to "像買馬般隨便挑一隻投注". The Bible says:"UNless the Spirit moves, nobody can really accept the Christian Faith". Abraham believed, not because he took a bet on God merely but because he really trusts in Him.
Yes, the telephone bill joke is funny, but this is not funny at all.
Please face the question and PLEASE don't brand others as "堅信自己掌握了真理，別人一切努力的分析和解說置之不理，這類人是否在教會內？他又是否可以得救？". Is this responsible?
Which Christian should not "堅信自己掌握了真理"---Oh, to make you guys see easier, "真理" does not mean all of the Truth(which is God's secret), OK? But if that is really something true, why should I hesitate to defend it? Remember I said Christians are witnesses?
"別人一切努力的分析和解說置之不理"---if your "置之不理" means: 1) refusing to listen, then I am not. you see I am discussing it with you now.
But if your "置之不理" means: 2) upholding my Faith, then surely I am. IN fact, who should not?
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 03:37:47
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"我覺得他們比我好", what do you mean? If you are already a children of God, why should you despice your noble status and compare yourself with them? Even though we sin by human weakness, but this is true for them too.
"Humility" is a virtue, but you should trust in God and his power to forgive you through the sacrament of Penance. What is the point to compare yourself with them?
IF you need an example to follow, why don't follow our dear Saints?
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 04:27:40
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"基督信仰如其他許多宗教一樣，既不能證實，也不能否定"---If the people you refer to ARE WAITING for a "Proof" (or Dis*proof) to satisfy them in order to accept Christ, then they will never believe.
I said they will be condemned, IF they ignore and resist by Will, the Actual Grace of God given them, in the essence of a move by the Holy Ghost. As in Hebrews. However It is very hard to decide a man is really in this state(we are not mind readers).
We don't know if their conscience is really blinded, so we don't know WHY EXACTLY he choose not to accept this free gift of God. Maybe he is really "totally"-very very ignorant, or maybe he knows the Church CAN save him but he, out of some reasons we don't know, REFUSES it. The Pharisees are such example, they KNOW Christ is God but they reject Him by Will, so they will be condemned, the Law of Moses will not save them.
I already gave another example on this.
How "ignorant" is he, that he should be pardoned or how "delibrate" is he, that he should be damned? WE don't know, that is the judgement of God............So I said:"NO CONCLUSION IS GIVEN"
"審判人的是天主，祂沒有授權我或你去替祂行事"---Of course, but if a person choose by Will not to accept God, even God can't force him to believe!
Asserting that if
a man refuses God willfully must lead to his condemnation =?= judging him?
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"只憑良心做人，老老實實地盡力做一個好人", but the fact is, given the corruption by the Original Sin, and the lack of Sanctifying Grace, Or the grace from the sacraments, can a person rely SOLELY on his conscience to attain that salvation, if Christ is here offering himself FREE for their acceptance?
Of course, Conficius or Plato (e.g.) didn't know Christ so they will be judged by their conscience.
Given the circumstances of this modern world, consider its temptations, the evils, and the increased activity of the Devil to confuse the world, a person is very hard (but not logically impossible) to live ALL BY HIS CONSCIENCE (so are us so we Christians need the Bible, sacraments and confessions).
If he refuses the free gift of Christ as His Guide to Heaven and thinks he is so powerful to avoid eternal death ALL BY HIMSELF, like your friends, that is fine. He is still logically possible to be saved becuase God judges all man according to his own deeds, but I say, given this FREE GIFT OF THE SONSHIP OF GOD here, WHY SHOULDN'T we share, and PERSUADE if necessary, your friends to the Church??
The passage of Hebrews remind us the dangers of Apostasy and the Rejection of the Holy Spirit. The aim is clear: tell us that there WILL BE people who are not saved. HELL EXISTS.
An echo of another verse in the Gospel:"Let you who thinks you are safe take care, lest you lose faith and fall."
Indeed, even Christians have the danger of falling, how about those with no Christian Faith? Fortunately, Christians may trust God and hope in his salvation firstly.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 04:57:12
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Hello 靚仔:
Clarification of terms again. "Plan B"($188/month 5000 min., HaHa) refers to people like Conficious, Aristotle, Plato, Socrates......Of course they are linked to Christ and the Catholic Church in a mystical way as you mentioned. I totally agree. (So we will see them debating with St. Thomas Aquinas...etc. in Heaven.)
But they have not heard about our historical Church and the historical Christ with his Resurrection...etc. So I think they are saved in a different way compared to ours. SO they are not people who choose plan A ($88/month 1000min.---they need to debate a lot so they take 5000 mins.) like us.
If you ask me whether there are any Plan C, Plan D......I donno.
Please correct me if needed.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 05:51:26
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No, my plan B is $88/mon, unlimited mins. haha.
I'm not talking about the people in the past, I am talking about people HERE AND NOW! They may "heard" of Jesus, but they by whatever reason "misunderstand" it and don't believe He can save them. That is what my plan B.
I can't agree with you that "(Bible) tell us that there WILL BE people who are not saved", what it said is it is POSSIBLE that people who are not saved, indeed God want all men saved, I think.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 06:03:18
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是我越看越糊塗,還是我的理解能力越來越差呢?
究竟Jedi的說話是向西滿還是奧斯定說的呢?
定原來是向我說的呢?
無所謂啦,在未知道誰可得救前,不如飲翻杯先啦!
二月八號晚,研習會後,有興趣的話,可和我聯絡.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 06:54:58
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Yes I share the same confusion about Jedi's comment as you did.
Yes the passage in Hebrews only tells us those who rejects Christ delibrately will not be saved. The passage hasn't assure us there must be people like these.
But I remember many places in the Bible refers to the "Eternal Fire", the "weeds from the wheat", "people who will be cast away grind their teeth", "those on the left of the Lamb", "followers of the Beast".....many many. But do these character really exists(have existed now OR will exist later)?
That is, will there be real eternal punishment? Of course that's again God's secret, "not known even by the Son".
This goes back to your first question:"If these punishments exist, will they be carried out?"
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 07:02:29
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"God wants all men saved"---to what extend? I have always been contemplating on this hard. That is, the problem of effacacious grace and predestination. This conflict is my patron saint's favorite topic, some Jesuits scholars tried to answer or partially explain them but I never find their explanation total satisfactory.
I can't decide my stance on such a difficult question, so I quit it. I need some good sleep really.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 07:53:41
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靚仔: For those MODERN people who wish to be saved (your notion of "plan B"), of course God will rely mostly on their conscience to judge them. SO we can't claim they will 100% be banished. They may be plan C(plan B for you) people. Ghandi may be one, I donno.
But as I suggested, and under the deep appreciation of St.Paul and St.Augustine's understanding of human will's weakness, is it so easy nowadays to keep your conscience?
I think if we now stress too much on this special "salutery" conscience, We will create an impression to modern people thinking that the Catholic Faith is unnecessary, thus not valuable. Then they may rely too much on their conscience(in fact it's their Free Will) and ignore their weaknesses.
If we over-rely our Free Will which is changed greatly after the Original Fall, it is very dangerous. After all, how many people are as good as Ghandi really?
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In my view, what makes the Catholic Faith so "necessary=very very important"(to all people who heard about Christ, plan B or C...) is that it is through Christ GOD DIRECTLY shares our bitter(because of Original sin) lives and DWELLS among us.
He intervenes directly and helps us to Search, Awake and PRACTICE our once blinded conscience which came initially from God when He created Adam!
It is the Incarnation where God manifested as a man that man may REGAIN the power to struggle against the Devil and Death, and be rendered heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven. O magnum mysterium!
You see, God comes down from Heaven to AWAKE OUR BLURRED CONSCIENCE(after the Fall) and DIRECTS US to practice our conscience. Without God's Actual Grace, who can really live fully according to his conscience?
This is what makes the Gospels "necessary" to all people, that makes our Christian Faith meaningful and that makes Preaching of the Gospel Very Urgent.
If you have an Invaluable Pearl-the Catholic Faith like this, why shouldn't we say it is "necessary" to share it with our friends? We should, I think, force it into their pockets if we are really convicted it is very very important to them. That's why St. Paul says, "I am in debt to all people".
--------------------------------------------------And you mentioned February 8th 研習會? What's the activity? And when and where?
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 12:23:49
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真有趣，大家都以為jedi是說自己，這叫做 paranoid。
言歸正轉，我的想法如下：
現今的天主教義認為，不同的宗教信仰（只要是導人向善的），是神對不同民族的啟示，都是有價值。
神是愛，神在造人已埋了愛的種子，如果一個人沒有信耶穌，但他處處發揮愛心，熱心助人，行事正直，他如果死後要下地獄，不是太出奇嗎？
受了聖神的感動而仍然拒絕天主，很不應該。但怎樣才是「聖神的感動」，很難說得清楚。我認識一位慕道班的導師，她坦白地說從不覺得聖神感動過她。哪些聽過福音但毫不感動的人，算不算拒絕天主？
上天國的道路，不只plan A and B 吧！
Simon
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rasputin
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 12:33:10
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都是我不好, 原本只是我個人的問題,
搞到呢度成為辯論場, 罪過罪過!
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歸一
管理人員
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 07:23:28
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不要這樣想，正由於有人提出問題，他們才可以一過口癮。
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 10:26:21
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 10:29:56
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但一哥,你呢?近來很少見你出手喎.
我當然可以過吓口癮,因為呃到steve請飲酒.哈哈!
7-9的研習會即本網頁主頁所宣傳的那個.
Simon, 你以下的句子非常粗疏
"現今的天主教義認為，不同的宗教信仰（只要是導人向善的），是神對不同民族的啟示，都是有價值。"
有嚴重的泛神論傾向,如不作出修訂,一定會被拉辛格釘牌,如你有牌比他的話
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 10:30:36
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但一哥,你呢?近來很少見你出手喎.
我當然可以過吓口癮,因為呃到steve請飲酒.哈哈!
7-9的研習會即本網頁主頁所宣傳的那個.
Simon, 你以下的句子非常粗疏
"現今的天主教義認為，不同的宗教信仰（只要是導人向善的），是神對不同民族的啟示，都是有價值。"
有嚴重的泛神論傾向,如不作出修訂,一定會被拉辛格釘牌,如你有牌比他釘的話
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 10:36:56
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simon,請細心讀讀梵二的"非基"宣言二,這才是現代教僧的正式立場.
問題的核心是教會不承認其他的宗教為神直接的"啟示",而是人在尋覓神的過程中(其他宗教)發現了一些"真的聖的"因素.
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 11:20:01
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Again I can smell the discussion has been too liberal on Simon's end and too conservative on Augustine's end. But then again, I guess no one loves to be labeled.
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/30 下午 02:25:39
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Where can I find a copy of梵二的"非基"宣言二?
That "不同的宗教信仰（只要是導人向善的），是神對不同民族 的啟示" is not invented by me. I got that message from a priest teaching at the Theology Institue(Sorry, I don't know the name of the Institute in English) at Wong Chuk Hang. The message was also given to me by the tutor of the catechism class I attended several years ago.
I don't agree with the saying "教會不承認其他的宗教為神直接的"啟示",而是人在尋覓神的過程中 (其他宗教)發現了一些"真的聖的"因素. " If God does not want to give a message to us, we won't be able to discover it ourselves. If we can find it, the reason is that God want us to get the message.
Simon
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/30 下午 02:47:30
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梵蒂岡第二次大公會議文獻,公教進行社有售.
網上版本應可在聖神修院神哲學院圖書館的網頁中找到.
網址在本版左手邊.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/30 下午 02:58:00
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神聖的公議會承認"天主,萬物的根源及歸宿,藉人類理智的本性之光,從受造物中確實能夠被認識."(啟示憲章6)
這是傳統所指的自然神學,或自然啟示.所有有限的存有(受造物)皆分授了無限存有(天主)的一些屬性,我們可以用理智去認識,但這不代表其他的宗教也是天主的啟示.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/30 下午 03:00:15
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我唔知有無理解錯誤阿校長所教的呢?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/30 下午 03:13:56
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其他宗教的人反而是因聽到他們良心的呼召,而確切地回應這呼召,而使其救恩成為可能.
"良心是人最秘密的中樞,聖所.在此,人獨自與天主會晤,並聽到祂的聲音. (現代16)
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simon
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Posted -
2003/1/30 下午 08:59:33
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靚仔：
依你所說，人能夠發現和認識一些「天主從沒有打算向人啟示的屬性」。果真如此，人不是比天主更厲害？
我還是相信，人能洞察的美好事情，都是天主給人的啟示。基於此，我認為佛學主張的「善有善報」，也是神給印度和中國人的啟示。
Simon
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2003/1/30 下午 11:18:07
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you are putting words in handsome's mouth.
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jedi
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Posted -
2003/1/30 下午 11:50:57
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steve,你是否也在put words in Simon's mouth?
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