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edward


Posted -
2003/4/30 ¤U¤È 07:28:21

§Ú¬Ý¨ä¹ê¤j®a¦b³o¨àª§ÅG¤F³o»ò¤[¡A¨ä¹ê¤£¥~¥G¬O¦b°Q½×¡G¹ï©ó¤£¬Û«H¤Ñ¥D±Ðªº¤H¨Ó»¡¡A­Y¥L­Ì³Ì²×±o±Ïªº¸Ü¡A¬O°ò©ó¬Æ»ò­ì¦]©M±ø¥ó¡H

¦pªG§Ú­Ì¯à½T¤Á¦aÁ|¥X³o¨Ç¡u­ì¦]¡v©M¡u±ø¥ó¡v¡A´N¯à½T¤Á¦a»¡¡Aº¡¥þ¸Ó¨Ç¡u­ì¦]¡v©M¡u±ø¥ó¡vªº¤H¡A´N¯à±o±Ï¡C

¹ï¤Ñ¥D±Ð®{¨Ó»¡¡A³o¨Ç­ì¦]©M±ø¥ó¬O¡u¸t¤Æ®¦Ãd¡v©M¡u«í¦u¦Ü²×¡v¡F¦ý¹ï¤£«H¤Ñ¥D±Ðªº¤H¨Ó»¡¡A³o¨Ç­ì¦]©M±ø¥ó¬O¬Æ»ò¡H¨ì©³¦³¨S¦³±ø¥ó¡H

¦èº¡¥S»{¬°¡G¤@­Ó¦n¤H¤Î¦³·R¤ßªº¤H¡AÀ³¥i¥H±o±Ï¡C¦èº¡¥S¬O§_³o¼Ë·Q¡G­Y¦n¤H¤£±o±Ïªº¸Ü¡A¨º»ò¤Ñ¥DÁÙ¬O¤Ñ¥D¶Ü¡H

¦ý¥¿¦pÂk¤@¥S©Ò»¡¡G¡u¦ý«ç¼Ë¤~ºâ¦n¤H¡H¡vÂk¤@¥Sªº¦¹¤@Æ[¹î¡A¹D¥X¤F¦èº¡¥Sªº¼ç¦bº|¬}¡C¬Û«H¦èº¡¥S·|¦P·N¡G¸Û¤ß¸Û·N¦a¦æµ½¡A¤~²Å¦X°µ¡u¦n¤H¡vªº±ø¥ó¡C¦Ü©ó¬Æ»ò¤~ºâ¡uµ½¨Æ¡v¡A«hÄÝ©ó­Û²z¼h­±ªº°ÝÃD¡C¡u¥´®a§TªÙ¡v¬O¤j³¡¤À¤H»{¬°´c¨Æ¡A¦ý«Ü¦h¤H«oı±o¡u§T´IÀÙ³h¡v¦b¬Y¨Ç±¡ªp¤U¥i¥H±µ¨ü¡C¸Ó«ç¼Ë¦b­Û²z¤Wµû¦ô¡u¶R½ª©ºÐ¡v³o¨Ç¡uµsª©¡v¦æ¬°¡H

·íµM¡A¹ï«H®{¨Ó»¡¡A¹ï¤Ñ¥D±Ò¥Üªº«H¼w¬O­Û²zªº¦Ü°ª¼Ð·Ç¡C¤Ñ¥D§i¶D§Ú­Ì¡G­þ¨Ç¬Oµ½¡B­þ¨Ç¬O´c¡C¦æµ½Á×´c¡A«ù¦u¦Ü²×¡A´N¥i±o±Ï¡C·íµM¡A¶W©Êªºµ½»Ý­n¶W©Êªº¼w¦æ¥h¼i¦æ¡C³o´N»¡©ú¤F¡u¶W©Ê®¦Ãd¡vªº­«­n©Ê¡C

·íµM¡A¤µ¥@©Ò»â¨üªº¶W©Ê®¦Ãd¡A¨Ï§Ú­Ì¦b¦¹¥Í¤§¤¤¡A¶}©l±o¨É¥Ã«íªº¥Í©R¡C«ö·Ó¤Ñ¥D©Ò©ú½T±Ò¥Ü¡G¬°¦b¤µ¥@»â¨ü¶W©Ê®¦Ãd¡A¥²»Ý»â¨ü¤Jªù¸t¨Æ¡A¥[¤J±Ð·|¨Ã¨ü¦oªºªª¾i¡C

¦ý¹ï©ó¦]¤£¦P­ì¦]¦Ó¤£¦b¤Ñ¥D±Ð·|¤ºªº¤H¡A³o­Ó¥Ã¥Íªº¾÷¨î¡]mechanism¡^«h¤£³o»ò¡u©ú®Ô¡v¤F¡C§Ú­Ì©Ò­n­±¹ïªº°ÝÃD¡A¬O¡G«ç¼Ë¥Î¡u¬Û¹ï©ú®Ô¡vªº«H¥õ»y¨¥¡A¥h¸ÑÄÀ¡u¤£¬Æ©ú®Ô¡vªº±Ð¥~¤H±o±Ïªº¥i¯à©Ê¡C

¸ÛµM¡A¶ø´µ©w¥S¨Ã¤£§_©w±Ð¥~¤H±o±Ïªº¥i¯à©Ê¡A¦ý¥Lªº°ò½Õ¬O´dÆ[ªº¡]¦p¥L©Ò»¡ªº¡uwhich fallen men very rarely achieve outside the Christian Faith¡v¡^¡C

­Y§Ú¨S¦³°O¿ù¡A¦]¤Ñ¥D²{®¦¡]actual grace¡^©Ò±À°Êªº¦¨¸q«eªºµ½¦æ¡A¯àÁܨӥO¤H¦¨¸qªº±`®¦¡]habitual / sanctifying grace¡^¡C°ÝÃD¬O¡G³o¨Ç¡uµ½¦æ¡v¦b¯Âºé¡u¥DÆ[¡v¡]¬Û¹ï©ó¡u«ÈÆ[¡vªº¤Ñ¥D±Ò¥Ü¯u²z¦Ó¨¥¡^ªº±¡ªp¤U¡A¥]¬A­þ¨Ç¦]¯À¡H§Ú»{¬°¡A¦èº¡¥S©ÒÃöª`ªº¡A¥¿¬O³o¤@ÂI¡C

simon


Posted -
2003/5/1 ¤W¤È 12:21:41

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Simon

simon


Posted -
2003/5/1 ¤W¤È 12:33:03

«ç¼Ë¤~ºâ¡u¦æµ½¡v¡A¨Ã¤£¬O¤@­Ó§xÃø°ÝÃD¡C§Y¨Ï¬O¨S¦³«H¥õªº¤H¡A¹ï¡uµ½¡v¤]¦³¬Û·í¥¿½TªºÆ[©À¡A¤ñ¦p´À¥L¤HµÛ·Q¡B§ß§U®z¤p¡B´î¤Ö§O¤Hªºµh­W........µ¥µ¥¡C

ÁÙ¬O¨º¥y¦Ñ¸Ü¡G¤@­Ó¨S¦³«H¤Ñ¥Dªºµ½¤H¡A­Y¦º«á­n¤U¦aº»¡A³o­Ó¤Ñ¥D©M¶ÂªÀ·|¦³¤°»ò¤À§O¡H¦P¼Ë¬O¡u§A¤£¤J·|¡A§Ú´N¥´¨ì§A¤f¸~­±·ï¡v¡C

Simon

edward


Posted -
2003/5/1 ¤U¤È 03:27:29

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¡u·R¤H¦p¤v¡v¡A°Z¤£¬O¨Ó¦Û¤Ñ¥Dªº±Ò¥Ü¶Ü¡H

§Ú¦P·N¨S¦³«H¥õªº¤H¡A©¹©¹¹ï¡uµ½¡v¤]¦³µÛ¬Û·í¥¿½TªºÆ[©À¡C¦p¡G¤Õ¤l©Ò»¡ªº¡u¤v©Ò¤£±ý¡A¤Å¬I©ó¤H¡C¡v¦ý¹ï©ó­Û²z¤Wªºµ½¡A¤H­Ì¹ï¨ä»{ÃÑ©¹©¹¨Ã¤£¦p§A©Ò»¡ªºÂ²³æ©M®e©ö¡C°Ê¾÷¨}¦n¡A¤£«OÃÒ¤£·|°µ¥X¿ù¨Æ¨Ó¡C

¤H­Y®É®É¨è¨è¨C¤À¨C¬í³£¬O¦æµ½¡A«h·íµM¬O¤@­Ó¡uµ½¤H¡v¡C¦æ¨Æªº²×·¥¥Ø¼Ð­Y°¾Â÷¡uµ½¡v¡A«h·|¹ï¸Ó¤H¦æ¬°ªº¡uµ½¡v¥´¤W©î¦©¡C

¦p§A©Ò»¡¡A¬°¡u¥L¤HµÛ·Q¡v¡A«Ü¦h®É¬OÅé½Ì¥L¤Hªº¦æ¬°¡A¦ý¥i¤£¥i¥H°Ý²M·¡¡G¬°¥L¤HµÛ·Q¬O¬°¥Lªº¡u¬Æ»ò¡vµÛ·Q©O¡H·Ä·R¤p«Ä¥H¦ÜÁVÁÏ¥Lªº¾Ç·~¡A«Ü¦h®É³£¬O¥X©ó¡u¬°«Ä¤lµÛ·Q¡v³o¤@­Ó°Ê¾÷¡F¡u§ß§U®z¤p¡vªº¤H¡A¹L¥h©¹©¹¥ç¦³¤@¬q®É¶¡¥uµÛ­«¹ï®z¤pªÌªºª÷¿ú´©§U¡A¦Ó©¿²¤¤F±Ð¨|¡B¤å¤Æ©M¸gÀÙ¯à¤O¤Wªºµô°ö¡F¡u´î¤Öµh­W¡v¡A¨Ï¦n¨ÇÂå¥Í¿ï¾Ü¬°¯f¤Hª`®g¬rÃĨӹF¦¨¡u¦w¼Ö¦º¡v¢w¢w¦b¥H¤Wªº±¡ªp¤U¡A³æ¾Ì¨}¦nªº°Ê¾÷¬O¤£¨¬°÷ªº¡C§Ú­ÌÁÙ¶·­±¹ï¿ùºî½ÆÂø¦ý«ÈÆ[ªº­Û²z»ù­È¡C

­Y¤Ñ¥D¦s¦b¡A¦ý¤H¦æ¨Æªº²×·¥°Ê¾÷¯Ê¤Ö¤F¡u¤Ñ¥D¡vªº¸Ü¡A«h¦p¶ø´µ©w¥S©Ò¨¥¡A¦b­Û²z¤W¬O¦³µÛ­Y¤z¤í¯Êªº¡C³o¥÷¤í¯Ê¥i¯à´N¬O­ì¸oªº¥»½è§a¡H¤H¹ï³o¥÷¤Ñ¥Í¤U¨Óªº¤í¯Ê¡A¤£¤@©w­n­t³d¥ô¡A¦ý²×Âk¤´¬O¤@¥÷¤í¯Ê¡C

¤£ª¾¦U¦ì¦³¦ó·N¨£¡H

simon


Posted -
2003/5/1 ¤U¤È 08:39:51

¹ï«Ä¤l·Ä·R¡B¥XµoÂI¬O¦n¦ý¦æ°Ê¿ù»~....³o¨Ç±¡ªp¡A¦b°ò·þ®{¤¤¤]±`±`¦³ªº¡C

§Ú»{ÃѤ£¤Ö¤H¡A¥L­Ìªº·R¤ß©M¦æ¬°¤ñ¤@¯ëªº°ò·þ®{ÁÙ­n¦n¡A¦pªG³o¨Ç¤H¥u¦]¦b¥@®É¨S¦³½T»{¤Ñ¥D¬O¯«´N­n¤U¦aº»¡A§Ú¤£¯à±µ¨ü³o¬O§Ú­Ì·O·Rªº¤Ñ¥D¡C

edward


Posted -
2003/5/1 ¤U¤È 11:55:27

¦èº¡¥S¡G

ªº½T¡A¤£¤Ö«D°ò·þ®{¡]¨Ò¦p¥Ì¦a¡^¡A¦b­Û²zªº¼w¦æ¤W¤ñ«Ü¦h°ò·þ®{³£¶W¨ô±o¦h¡C¹ï©ó§Aªº³o¤@¶µÆ[¹î¡A§Ú¬O»{¦Pªº¡C

§Ú¥ç¤£»{¬°¤Ñ¥D·|¦]¬°¬Y¤H¦b¥@¶¡¤£»{ÃÑÍ¢¡A¦Ó±N¥L¥´¶i¦aº»ªº¡C

µM¦Ó¡A¤H¦º«á¥Í©Rªº¥»½è¡A´N¬O¥Ã¤[©M¤Ñ¥D¦b¤@°_¡C¹ï©ó·RÍ¢ªºÆF»î¨Ó»¡¡A©M¤Ñ¥D¤@°_¬O¡u¤Ñ°ó¡v¡F¦ý¹ï©ó«ëÍ¢ªºÆF»î¨Ó»¡¡A©M¤Ñ¥D¤@°_«h¬O¡u¦aº»¡v¤F¡C

¹ï©ó¦b¤H¥@ªº®É­Ô¤£»{ÃѤѥDªº¤H¨Ó»¡¡A«ç¼Ë¥i¥H¥s¥L¦b¦º«á·R¤Ñ¥D©O¡H

Âk¤@

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/2 ¤W¤È 11:24:51

§Ú­Ì¦p¦ó¬É©w¤Ñ¥D©O¡H¦p¦ó¬É©w§O¤H»{¤£»{ÃѤѥD©O¡H

Augustine


Posted -
2003/5/2 ¤W¤È 11:54:44

Greetings everyone!(I type Chinese ultra-SLOW so I need English as my medium, please pardon.)

"­Y§Ú¨S¦³°O¿ù¡A¦]¤Ñ¥D²{®¦¡]actual grace¡^©Ò±À°Êªº¦¨¸q«eªºµ½¦æ¡A¯àÁܨӥO¤H¦¨¸qªº±`®¦¡]habitual / sanctifying grace¡^¡C°ÝÃD¬O¡G³o¨Ç¡uµ½¦æ¡v¦b¯Âºé¡u¥DÆ[¡v¡]¬Û¹ï©ó¡u«ÈÆ[¡vªº¤Ñ¥D±Ò¥Ü¯u²z¦Ó¨¥¡^ªº±¡ªp¤U¡A¥]¬A­þ¨Ç¦]¯À¡H"...from whence I proceed...

Here are my reflections:
(1) Do those without Catholic Faith, who are saved eventually, have in their earthly lives, as A NECESSARY pre-requisite to their salvation, a form of sanctifying grace?

IF YES we ask number (2):
--------------------------------------------------
(2) If they do possess a form of "sanctifying grace",
(2-a) Is this sanctifying grace the same(in essence) as that of ordinary catholics?
(2-b) Edward mentioned, which is a truth, that Actual Grace precedes sanctifying grace and prepares for it. Now my question is:

"Do those saved without Catholic Faith, and those catholics, are moved by this particular Actual Grace in the same/similar(if similar, HOW similar) ways, so as to receive sanctifying grace afterwards?"==="Does this Actual GRace has the same effect in catholics and non-catholics?"

(2-c):³o¨Ç¡uµ½¦æ¡v¦b¯Âºé¡u¥DÆ[¡v¡]¬Û¹ï©ó¡u«ÈÆ[¡vªº¤Ñ¥D±Ò¥Ü¯u²z¦Ó¨¥¡^ªº±¡ªp¤U¡A¥]¬A­þ¨Ç¦]¯À?

--------------------------------------------------
(3)Do these "¦]¯À" include all the everyday human usage of "Morally good" acts? If yes, then I ask:"ARe these "morally good acts" per se SUFFICIENT, so as to invite the Holy Ghost and thereby inherit sanctfying grace?

If yes, I ask:"then the catholic faith seems rebundant, because they are effects of the Actual grace on-top-of moral acts, which are the ESSENTIAL effects of this pre-habitual Actual Grace?"

If yes, then why we still be confined in the Catholic Faith? Why don't we rely on ourselves, AS THE JUDGE OF OURSELVES, and SAVE ourselves, after the initial help of this Divine-given actual grace? (I have not yet mentioned the problem of PRESERVANCE for non-catholics, which is so rare without divine aid)


edward


Posted -
2003/5/2 ¤U¤È 10:18:15

Âжø´µ©w¥S¡G

¦b¹Ð¥@¤¤»â¨ü¸t¤Æ®¦Ãd¡B¶}©l¡u®¦Ãd¥Í¬¡¡v¡]±`®¦¡^ªº³~®|¡A¬OÂÇ«H¼wªº¬~§¡C§Ú­Ì¦Ü¤Ö¬O±q¡u¬~§¡v¤Î¡u¦¨¸q¡vªº·§©À¨Ó²z¸Ñ¡u±`®¦¡vªº·N¸qªº¡C³o¡u±`®¦¡vªº¨ä¤¤¤@­Ó¯S©Ê¡A´N¬O¡G¦¹¨è¦³µÛ±`®¦¡A¨Ã¤£ªí¥Ü»P§Ú­Ì¡]±Ð¤Í¡^³Ì²×ªº±o±Ï»P§_¦³µÛ¡u¥²µM¡vªºÃö«Y¢w¢w±`®¦¥i¥HÂÇ¥\ÁZ¦Ó¼W¥[¡A¥ç¥i¥HÂǸo¹L¦Ó®ø´î¬Æ¦Ü³à¥¢¡C

·íµM¡A§Ú­Ì¥i¥H»¡¡G³Ì²×±o±Ïªº±Ð¤Í¡A¦º¤`ªº¤@¨è¬O³B©ó±`®¦ªº¹Ò¬É¡C¦ý§Ú½èºÃ¥Î³o¡u±`®¦¡vªº·§©À¨Ó§Î®e¡]³Ì²×¦b¹Ð¥@¥Í©RºÉÀY¥¼¦³©úÅã¬Ô¨Ì¤Ñ¥D±Ðªº¡^«D±Ð¤Í¦b¥@®Éªº®¦Ãdª¬ºA¡A¹ï¥L­Ì¬O§_¤½¥­¡C

±ë¤G±Ð·|¾Ë³¹¡]²Ä¤Q¤»¸`¡^¦³¨¥¡G¡uÁÙ¦³¤@¨Ç¤H¡A«D¦]¦Û¤wªº¹L¥¢¡A©|¥¼»{ÃѤѥD¡A«o¤£µL¤Ñ¥D¸tÃd¦Ó«j¤O«×µÛ¥¿ª½ªº¥Í¬¡¡A¤Ñ¥D¤W´¼¤]¤£·|¨Ï¥L­Ì¯Ê¤Ö¬°±o±Ï¥²»Ýªº§U¦ö¡C¡v¡]Nec divina Providentia auxilia ad salutem necessaria denegat his qui sine culpa ad expresssam agnitionem Dei nondum pervenerunt et rectam vitam non sine divina gratia assequi nituntur.¡^

·|ij¥u¬O«Ü·§¬A¦a¨Ï¥Î¡u§U¦ö¡v³o¤@¦r²´¡C

edward


Posted -
2003/5/2 ¤U¤È 11:39:24

¦¹¥~¡A¶ø´µ©w¥S§A©Ò»¡ªº¡ucatholic faith¡v¦ü¥G»P§Ú­Ì©Ò²z¸Ñªº¡ucatholic faith¡v¦³¥X¤J¡C§A¦b¥»¦~¤@¤ë¤Ü¤K¤é»¡¹L¡G

"Catholic Faith" means the common portion of the Christian Faith possessed by the universal Church¡@(not just the Church of Rome, of course)¡@that are NECESSARY to salvation:e.g. The Divinity of Christ, His literal Resurrection, the Trinity and the Necessity of Sanctifying(whatever name non-catholics call it) Grace, the Fall of Men and corruption of Original Justice, the Eternal Fire......etc.

¡K So, "Catholic" is not just "Roman Catholic". In a sense, some orthodox or Protestants are "Catholics". "Catholic Faith" simply means "the collection of Christianity Faith that saves and is sufficient to let you go to Heaven".

¡K¡K But if we refine the terms, that will not be misleading.


¦Ó«ö·Ó¤Ñ¥D±Ðªk¨å²Ä750±ø¡A²Ä¤@´Ú¡G

Those things to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written down or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, which are manifested by the common adherence of Christ's faithful under the guidance of the sacred magisterium ¡K

½Ð§A¥i§_¦A¸Ô²Ó¦a»¡©ú¤@¤U¡H

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤W¤È 01:04:39

¦b°òª©FAQ¦³³o¼Ëªº¬Ýªk¡A¤]­È±o°Ñ¦Ò¡A°_½X­n²M·¡¦Û¤v¦pªG±Ä¯Ç¬Y­ÓÆ[ÂI´N·|¦³¤°»òªºimplication :

¦³¨Ç¤H¤£¬O¦]¦Û¤vªº¹L¥¢¦ý¨S¦³¾÷·|Å¥ºÖ­µ¡A¦³¨Ç¤H©ÒÅ¥ªººÖ­µ¬O¤£§¹¾ã¡B³Q¦±¸Ñªº¡A³o¨Ç¤H¥þ³£·|¨H²_¶Ü¡H

¤j²³¶Ç¼½¡B±Ð¨|Åé¨t¡B¤å¾Ç§@«~¥þ³£±Ä¥@«UÆ[ÂI¡A¦]¦¹¡AµL½×¨k¤k¦Ñ¥®(¯S§O¬O¨àµ£)³£¨ü¨ì±j¯P¤Ï¸t¸g«H¥õªºÂȳ³¡C¦b³oºØ¥@«U²z©À¤å¤Æ¤UªºÄ묹ªÌ¡A§Ú­Ì¹ï¨ä¤£«H¯à»¡¤°»ò©O¡H¥L­Ì¤£¬O¥@«U²z©Àªº³Ð³yªÌ¡A¤D¬O¨ä¦¨«~¡A³Q¶ì³y¦¨¦¸°ò·þ®{ªº§Îª¬¡C

­Y»¡¦]°ò·þ±Ð¤å¤Æªº±Y¼ì¡A¨Ï¤@­Ó¤H¦s¤£«Hªº²z©À¡A¥LªºÆF»î´N·|·À¤`¡A³oºØ½×½Õ¹ï°ò·þ®{¼e«pªº¤ß¸z¦Ó¨¥¡A¤£³×¬O¤@³õ¹ÚÆL¡C

³o­Ó°ÝÃD¥²¶·µªÂСC

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤W¤È 01:06:55

and it went on :

¹ï³o­Ó°ÝÃD¡A°ò·þ®{´¿´£¥X¦U¦¡¦U¼Ëªºµª®×¡G¦³¨Ç¤H»{©w¡A©Ò¦³«D«H®{¥²µM¤U¦aº»¡CÁöµM¦³²z¡A¦ý¬Oµ²½×Ãø¹D«D¦p¦¹¤£¥i¡H¥t¨Ç¤H¨Ã¤£¦P·N¡C

³Ì¦­´Á±Ð·|ªºÅ@±ÐªÌ¡A´¿µø§Æþ­õ¾Ç¬°¯«ªº±Ð¾É¡A¦b¥~¨¹¤H¤¤¬°ºÖ­µ§@¹w³Æ¡C¥L­ÌªÖ©wĬ®æ©Ô©³¡B¬f©Ô¹Ïµ¥¤H¡A¯àÂǵ۱µ¨ü¥L­Ì©Ò±µ¨üªº±Ò¥Ü¡X¡X¹D¦¨¦×¨­«eªº¹D¡]the pre-incarnate Word¡^¡A¦Ó±o±Ï®¦¡C¦³¤H¤´µM«ù¦¹ºØ¬Ýªk¡C

³\¦h¤HÀµ¤Á´Á±æ©Ò¦³ªºÀ¦¨à³£¯à¦]°ò·þªº¤Q¬[¦Ó±o±Ï¡X¡X½t¦Û¶ø¥j´µ¤B»P¦ý¤Bªº·Qªk¡G¥¼¨ü¬~¦Ó¦ºªº«Äµ£¤£·|¶i¤Ñ°ó¡A¦ý¤]¤£·|¨ü¦aº»¤§­W¡C

¤Ñ¥D±Ð±ë¿Í©£±^²Ä¤G·|ij§ó¶i¤@¨B»¡¡G¡u¤Z¤£¬O¦]¸oªº½t¬G¡A¥u¬O¤£ª¾¹D°ò·þªººÖ­µ»P±Ð·|ªº¤H¡A­Y¸Û¤ß´M¨D¯«¡A¦b¯«®¦¨åªº·P¥l¤U¡A®Ú¾Ú¨}¤ß¨Ó¥ß§Ó¦æ¨Æ¡A«K¯à±o¬Ý¥Ã¥Í¡C¡v¡u¤£¬O¦]¸oªº½t¬G¡A¥u¬O¤£ª¾¹D¡v¡]guiltlessly ignorant¡^¤@µü¡A¬O«ü¥L­ÌµLªk§Ü©Ú¡]invincible¡^ªºµLª¾¡A§¹¥þ¬O¦]Àô¹Òªº½t¬G¡A¤£¬O¥Ñ©ó©¿²¤¡B·N§Ó¤£°í¡B©Î¬G·N¡]ª½±µ©Î¶¡±µ¡^¤£¶¶ªA¯«¡C³o¤@±ø­ì¬O¬°¸ÑÄÀ´_­ì¬£¡]°ò·þ®{¡^ªº«H®{¦p¦ó¯à±o±Ï¦Ó¼gªº¡A¦ý²{¦b«h³Q¥Î¨Ó¸ÑÄÀ¥ô¦ó©v±Ð¤¤³£¦³¤H¥i¯à·|±o±Ï¡C

ªñ¥N¤Ú¯S¡]Karl Barth¡^±Ð¾É»¡¡A¦b°v¤Q¬[ªº°ò·þùØ¡A¤HÃþ¥þ³£³Q¼f§P¡B±óµ´¡F¦Ó¦b´_¬¡ªº°ò·þùØ¡A¤HÃþ¥þ³£³Q´z¿ï¡BºÙ¸q¡C³o½×ÂI¤@¤j¤j¿EÀy¤F©ú½Tªº´¶±Ï½×¡C´¶±Ï½×¦b¤µ¤é°ò·þ±Ð¤j³¡¥÷¤H¤h¤¤¡A¤w¦¨¬°¤½»{ªº¬Ýªk¡A»{¬°³o¬O°ò·þ±ÏÅ«¤§¥\ªºµ²ªG»Pµ{«×¡C

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤W¤È 01:12:56

and it refered this to³Ì²×¼ÖÆ[¥D¸q

©Ò¦³ªº¤H³Ì«á³£·|¦]¯«ªº®¦¨å±o±Ï¬O¤@ºØ»á¥O¤H¼e¼¢ªº·Qªk¡A¤£¥²¦A¾á¤ß²§±Ð®{¡BµL¯«½×ªÌ¡B«D°ò·þ±Ðªºµ½¨k«H¤k¡B¥@«UªÀ·|ªº»ö¬¹«~µ¥¤Hªº©R¹B¡X¡X¥]¬A¤d¸U¥¼Å¥¹LºÖ­µªº¦¨¦~¤H¡A¥H¤Î¤d¸U¥®¦~§Y³u¡A¥¼¯àÁA¸ÑºÖ­µªº¤H¡C¤Z·PıÆF±Óªº°ò·þ®{³£·|Ä@·N±µ¯Ç´¶±Ï½×¡A¥HÂ\²æ¤@ªT¥O¤Hµh·¡ªº¹_¤l¡CÅý§Ú­Ì¬Ý¬ÝÃÙ¦¨ªº¤H¦p¦ó»¡¡C

²{¥N´¶±Ï½×ªº°ò¥»Æ[©À¡A¨Ã¤£¬O¨S¦³¤HÀ³³Q©w¸o¡A¦Ó¬O¨C¤@­Ó¤H³Ì²×³£·|³Q±a»â¨ìÁ¾¨õ·P®¦ªº¦a¨B¡A±µ¨ü¯«±µ¯Ç¥L­Ìªº¨Æ¹ê¡A´N¬O°ò·þ±ÏÅ«ªº¦º¬°¥L­Ì©Ò¦¨´Nªº¡C¦aº»ÁöµM¬O¯uªº¡A³Ì«á«o¤£·|¦³¤H¶i¥h¡C

¤Ñ¥D±Ðªº´¶±Ï½×ªÌ»{¬°¡A¤H¦b¼Z¸¨¤§«á¤´µM¦³¦Vµ½¡B´M¨D¯«ªº¦ÛµM¶É¦V¡C³o¬O¯«¤@¯ë®¦¨åªº¦¨ªG¡A¤]ºc¦¨¤FÁôÂ꺫H¤ß¡X¡X¹ï¯«´¯¶}ªº¤ß¡F¦b®É¾÷¨ìªº®É­Ô¡]¤£½×¬O¤µ¥Í©Î¨Ó¥Í¡^¡A³o¤ß«K·|±µ¨ü°ò·þ©M¨ä±Ï®¦¡A¬Æ¦ÜµS¤j¥çµM¡]³o¬O´ú¸Õ´¶±Ï¿ÙÅÞ¿è«Ü¦nªº­Ó®×¡^¡C

°ò·þ±Ðªº´¶±Ï½×ªÌ±`¤½µM»¡¡A¦b³o¥@¤W¤£«Hªº¤H·|¤U¦aº»¡A¥i¬O·|Ä~Äò¦s¬¡¡Aµ¥¥L­Ì¿ô®©¹L¨Ó¡A´N·|¹J¨£°ò·þ¡A¦Ó¦b¨º¨à¾Ö©êÍ¢¡C¨ä³Ì¥D­nªº«H©À¬O¡G¦aº»¹ï¤£«HªÌªº§@¥Î¡A´N¹³¤Ñ¥D±Ðªº·Òº»¹ï«H®{¤@¯ë¡A±N¥L­ÌºÞ°V¨ì°÷¸ê®æ¨É¨ü¤Ñ°ó¬°¤î¡C

´¶±Ï½×¹ï®¦¨åªº¬Ýªk¬O³Ì²×¼ÖÆ[¥D¸q¡A¦aº»¤£¬O²×·¥ª¬ºA¡A¦Ó¬OÂk®aªº®È³~¡C¯«Åý¤H¦b¦º«á»P°ò·þ¬Û¹J¡]¹ï¦³¨Ç¤H¬O²Ä¤G¦¸¾÷·|¡A¦³¨Ç¤H«h¬O²Ä¤@¦¸¡^¡A¥HÍ¢ªº¥DÅv©I¥l¡B¬@±Ï¨C¤@­Ó¤H¡C³Ì«á¤£·|¦³¤@­Ó¤H¥¢³à¡C¦aº»¦Ü²×·|¤H¥h¼ÓªÅ¡C

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤W¤È 01:17:04

and it also included the difficulty of´¶±Ï½×

³oºØ¦aº»ªÅ³]ªº¬Ýªk¦³¦ó®Ú¾Ú¡H¨S¦³¥ô¦ó¸g¤å©ú½T¤ä«ù©Ò¦³¤H³Ì²×³£±o±Ïªº²z½×¡C´¶±Ï½×¨ä¹ê¥u¬O¤@ºØ¯«¾Çªº´¢´ú¡A±N¤@¨Ç·s¬ù¸g¤å¤@¥ØÁAµMªº·N¸qºJ¦b¤@®Ç¡A¦Ó±j½Õ©Ò¿×·s¬ù«ä·QªºÁ`·N¡G¯«¹ï¤H¤½¸qªº³øÀ³¡A¬O¥HºÞ±Ð¨Óªí¹F±ÏÅ«¤§·R¡C

­Y´¶±Ï½×¨¬¥H±Ä«H¡A¬O«Ü¤£¿ù¡F¦ý¬O¸t¸g½×¨ì¯«ªº¼f§P¡A¨S¦³¤@³Bªí©ú³oºØ¬Ýªk¡G¦Ó»é¥¸ªºÅG¸Ñ«o¦ü¥G¥O¤H¤£±o¤£«HªA¡C

1.´¶±Ï½×°Z¤£¬O©¿²¤¤F¸t¸g¦A¤T±j½Õªº¤@ÂI¡G¤µ¥Íªº§à¾Ü¹ï¥ÃùÚ©R¹B¬O¡u¨M©w©Ê¡v¡B¡u²×·¥©Ê¡vªº¡H³o­Ó­«ÂI¯à§_¤@µ§¤Ä¾P¡HÅãµM¤£¯à¡C

2.´¶±Ï½×°Z¤£¬O±N°ò·þ©w¤F¸o¡H¦]¬°Í¢Äµ§i¤H¡AµL½×¥I¥X¦h¤j¥N»ù¡A³£­n°kÁצaº»¡F³o¼Ë¡AÍ¢­Y«D¯à¤O¤£¨¬¡]¤£ª¾¹D©Ò¦³ªº¤H¦Ü²×³£·|±o±Ï¡^¡A´N¬O¦³Á«¹D¼w¡]ª¾¹D¦ýÁô¿f¯u¶H¡A¥H®£Äß°ä¤H¶i¤Ñ°ê¡^¡C³o­ÓÃøÃD¯à¸Ñ¨M¶Ü¡HÅãµM¤£¯à¡C

3.´¶±Ï½×»{¬°¡A¦Ü°ªµL¤Wªº®¦¨å¯à¦b«D«H®{¦º«á¬@±Ï¥L­Ì¡A³o¤@»¡°Z¤£·|±a¨Ó·sªº°ÝÃD¡H°²©w¯«¦³¯à¤O¦Ü²×Åý¥þ¤HÃþ³£¦³«H¤ß¡A¬°¤°»ò¤µ¥@Í¢¤£¦p¦¹¦æ¡AÅý¨C¤@­ÓÅ¥¨£ºÖ­µªº¤H³£¬Û«H¡H¦ý­Y²{¦b¯«ªº¯à¤O¤£¨¬¥H¨Ï¤ZÅ¥»DºÖ­µªº¤H³£³c¨Ì¡A§Ú­Ì«ç¯àªÖ©wÍ¢¦b¨Ó¥Í¯à§@¨ì¡H´¶±Ï½×ªÌªº¯«½×¬O§_¯à«e«á¤@­P¡HÅãµM¤£¯à¡H

©Ò¥H¡A´¶±Ï½×¤£¬O¿ìªk¡C¤µ¥Íªº§à¾Ü¥²µM¬O¨M©w©Êªº¡C¦]¦¹¡A¦V§Ú­Ì©P³ò¼Z¸¨¡B¦³¸o¡B­±´Â¦aº»ªº¿Ë¤Í¶ÇºÖ­µ¬O§Ú­ÌÀ³Àu¥ý´£¨ÑªºªA¨Æ¡A³o¥¿¬O¥L­Ì³Ì­«­n¡B³Ì°ò¥»ªº»Ý­n¡C¶ÇºÖ­µ¥²¶·©~©ó­º¦ì¡A«ê¦üªì¥N«H®{¡B¾ú¥v¤Wªº¤j¤½±Ð·|¡B¤Î«Å±Ð¹B°Ê©Ò½á¤©ªº¦a¦ì¡C

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤W¤È 01:22:41

it concluded :

¦b¡u°ò·þ®{»P¥@¬É¦U©v±Ð¡v¤@®Ñ¤¤¡A¦w¼w¥ÍÀï¤h¡]Sir Norman Anderson¡^´£¥X¤@­ÓÃö©ó«D°ò·þ±Ð«H®{ªº°ÝÃD¡G¡u­Õ­Y¤jµo¼¦¼§ªº¯«ÂÇÍ¢ªºÆF¡A¦b¬Y¨Ç¨ä¥L©v±Ðªº«H®{¤ß¤¤¤u§@¡A¥HÍ¢ªº¡yÀÆ¥ú¡z±a»â¥L­Ì¨ì¬YºØµ{«×¡Aµo²{¦Û¤v¦³¸o¡A»Ý­n³j§K¡A¨ÃÀ°§U¥L­Ì¥õ¿àÍ¢ªº¼¦¼§¡F³o°Z¤£¬O¥i¯àªº¶Ü¡H¡v

µª®×¦ü¥G¬O¡uªº½T¦³¥i¯à¡v¡A¦Ü¤Ö¬Y¨Ç¬ù¤Hª«¥i¯à¬O¦p¦¹¡CªG¯u³o¼Ë¡A³o¨Ç«H®{¦b¤Ñ°ó«K·|±oª¾¡A¥L­Ì¬O¦]°ò·þªº¦º¦Ó±o±Ï¡A¤ßÆF¬O¦]¸tÆF¦Ó§ó·s¡F¦Ó¤]­Ì¤]·|¥[¤J±oºaÄ£ªº±Ð·|¡A¥Ã»·ºÙ¹|¯«¦Ü°ªµL¤Wªº±Ï®¦¡C±q²Ä¤G¥@¬ö°_¡A¤w¸g¦³°ò·þ®{¦p¦¹´Á±æ¡C©Î³\²{¦bĬ®æ©Ô©³»P¬f©Ô¹Ï¥¿¦b³oºØÅwªYªºª¬ºA¤¤¡X¡X½Öª¾¹D©O¡H¦ý¬O§Ú­Ì¨S¦³¥ô¦ó«OÃÒ¡A¥i¥H¡u´Á«Ý¡v¯«·|¦b¤@¦ì¨S¦³Å¥¨£ºÖ­µ¡BÁA¸ÑºÖ­µªº¤H¨­¤W³o»ò§@¡C

edward


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤W¤È 09:30:49

ÂÐÂk¤@¥S¡G

¦p¦ó¬É©w¤Ñ¥D©O¡H§Ú±o©Z¥Õ»¡¡G§Ú¤£ª¾¹D¡C

¹ï°ò·þ®{¨Ó»¡¡A¡u»{ÃѤѥD¡v¬O¾a±Ò¥Ü¡A¦ý¹ï«D°ò·þ®{¡A«h¬O±q¨ü³yª«¥h»{ÃÑ¡C¸t«O¸S©v®{»¡¡G§Y¨Ï¦b²{¥@¦³¤F«H¼w¡A§Ú­Ì²{¦b³£¥u¬O¡u±qÃè¤lÆ[¬Ý¡A¼Ò½k¤£²M¡v¡A¨º»ò¡A¯Âºé±q¨ü³yª«¨­¤W¤Ï¬M¤Ñ¥Dªº¯u²z¡A¥i»¡¬O§ó¥[¼Ò½k§a¡H

¤¤°ê¤H¹ï¡u¤Ñ¡vªº³o¤@§t½k·§©À¡A©M¹ï¦Û¨­ªº¤Ï¬Ù¡A¦ÓÄÄ´­¥X¤@®M¦h»ò§»¤j©M±R°ªªº­Û²z¨t²Î¡A±q°ò·þ®{ªº¨¤«×¦Ó¨¥¡A¬O¤£¬O¹ê¦b¦³¿à©ó¤Ñ¥Dªº¡u§U¦ö¡v©O¡H

¦p¦ó±q¹Ð¥@¶¡ªº¼Ò½k¦L¶H¡A¹L´ç¨ì¨Ó¥@¹ï¤Ñ¥Dªº²M´·­±¨£¡Aªº½T¬O¤@­Ó¤j°ÝÃD¡C

Augustine


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 12:28:58

"¦ý§Ú½èºÃ¥Î³o¡u±`®¦¡vªº·§©À¨Ó§Î®e¡]³Ì²×¦b¹Ð¥@¥Í©RºÉÀY¥¼¦³©úÅã¬Ô¨Ì¤Ñ¥D±Ðªº¡^«D±Ð¤Í¦b¥@®Éªº®¦Ãdª¬ºA¡A¹ï¥L­Ì¬O§_¤½¥­¡C"

Agree, that's precisely what that makes me ask my first reflection no.1:
"Do those without Catholic Faith, who are saved eventually, have in their earthly lives, as A NECESSARY pre-requisite to their salvation, a form of sanctifying grace?"

It seems that because it is unfair/inappriopiate to compare Sanctifying grace with that "auxilia ad salutem", then my reflection (1) should be answered negatively?

Augustine


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 12:41:29

My notion of "catholic Faith" is the Faith shared by the universal catholic Church, it includes those of the Orthodox catholic, Anglican catholic, and even Lutherans are in a sense "catholic"......by "catholic" here, an emphasis is put universality of the true Christian Faith.

In other words, in order to avoid confusion, I should use "Christian Faith" than "catholic faith" here.

Although these Christians do not share the complete dsposit of THE (Roman) Catholic Faith as handed by the Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, St. Thomas and then the ecumenical dogmatic Councils like Trent.....what they profess, like the Fathers and Scriptures do form a part of true Christian Faith.

Augustine


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 01:02:44

"ÁÙ¦³¤@¨Ç¤H¡A«D¦]¦Û¤wªº¹L¥¢¡A©|¥¼»{ÃѤѥD¡A«o¤£µL¤Ñ¥D¸tÃd¦Ó«j¤O«×µÛ¥¿ª½ªº¥Í¬¡¡A¤Ñ¥D¤W´¼¤]¤£·|¨Ï¥L­Ì¯Ê¤Ö¬°±o±Ï¥²»Ýªº§U¦ö"

I have always subscribe to this proposition. But, the possibility of Hell for non-Christians which I mentioned is based on totally different conditions than those in this proposition. That is, as Steve puts it, ¥Ñ©ó©¿²¤¡B·N§Ó¤£°í¡B©Î¬G·N¡]ª½±µ©Î¶¡±µ¡^¤£¶¶ªA¯«. This is clearly an offense against Holy Ghost which as Hebrews puts it, doesn't deserve salvation.

My argument with simon is due to this:
I see the possibility of an outwardly charitable person in secular terms, but without inner Christian Faith, AND this lack of Christian Faith is not due to the "guiltless ignorance", but is delibrate.

And simon simply equates charitable acts with inner conversion, which I object.

For this reason I said:"Good Works excluding Faith is dead---like those of the Pharisees".

So with these clarifications, I propose to investigate the meaning of the term:「助佑」這一字眼.

Qn: IF, as edward puts forward, this "為得救必需的助佑"
is inapprioate to compare with the Sanctifying grace(and my reflection 1 answered with a negative),

Then, what does this particualr "為得救必需的助佑" constitute?

Augustine


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 01:07:16

Bro. Edward,

My reflections are not intended to object to anything. They are REALLY just reflections per se. I was just putting forward my questions for everybody(if they are worthy so) to discuss.

Augustine

edward


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 01:47:02

±Ð·|¹ï©ó¡u¤£±o±ÏªÌ¡vªº¬Ýªk

¤Ñ¥D±Ð®{

¡u¤Z¦³°ò·þªº¸t¯«¡A±µ¨ü±Ð·|ªº¥þ³¡²Õ´¤Î¨ä©Ò¦³ªº±o±Ï¤èªk¡A¦P®É¦b¦o¦³§Îªº²Õ´¤º¡A¥H«H¥õ¡B¸t¨Æ¡B±Ð·|¦æ¬F¤Î¦@¿ÄªºÁpô¡A¦Ó»PÂDZЩv©M¥D±Ð­Ìªv²z±Ð·|ªº°ò·þ¬Ûµ²¦Xªº¤H¡A«K¬O§¹¥þ¥[¤J¤F±Ð·|ªº¹ÎÅé¡C¥i¬O§Y¨Ï¥[¤J¤F±Ð·|¡A¦ý¤£°í¦u·R¼wªº¡A¤]¤£¯à±o±Ï¡F¦]¬°¥L¥u¬O¨­¦b±Ð·|¤º¡A¦Ó«D¤ß¦b¨ä¤¤¡v¡C¡]¡m¤Ñ¥D±Ð±Ð²z¡n¡A837¡^

«D°ò·þ®{

µM¦Ó¦b¥L­Ì¡e«D°ò·þ®{¡fªº©v±Ð¦æ¬°¤W¡A¤H­Ì¤]ÅãÅS¥X¿ù»~©M¯Ê³´¡A¬n¦±¤F¦b¥L­Ì¨­¤Wªº¤Ñ¥D¨v¶H¡G ¥@¤H¹ð¦¸¨ü´cÅ]´ÛÄF¦Ó­P¯«´¼©ü°g¡A¥HÁÀ¨¥¨ú¥N¤Ñ¥D¯u²z¡A±Ë±ó³yª«¥D¦Ó¨Í©^¨ü³yª«¡A©Î¾K¥Í¹Ú¦º¡A¦n¹³¨S¦³¤Ñ¥D¦üªº¡A²×©ó¼Z¤Jµ´±æªº²`²W¸Ì¡C¡]¡m¤Ñ¥D±Ð±Ð²z¡n¡A844¡^

simon


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 03:03:50

Dear Steve,

·Q¦^À³§A³o­Ó°ÝÃD¡G

´¶±Ï½×»{¬°¡A¦Ü°ªµL¤Wªº®¦¨å¯à¦b«D«H®{¦º«á¬@±Ï¥L­Ì¡A³o¤@»¡°Z¤£·|±a¨Ó·sªº°ÝÃD¡H°²©w¯«¦³¯à¤O¦Ü²×Åý¥þ¤HÃþ³£¦³«H¤ß¡A¬°¤°»ò¤µ¥@Í¢¤£¦p¦¹¦æ¡AÅý¨C¤@­ÓÅ¥¨£ºÖ­µªº¤H³£¬Û«H¡H¦ý­Y²{¦b¯«ªº¯à¤O¤£¨¬¥H¨Ï¤ZÅ¥»DºÖ­µªº¤H³£³c¨Ì¡A§Ú­Ì«ç¯àªÖ©wÍ¢¦b¨Ó¥Í¯à§@¨ì¡H´¶±Ï½×ªÌªº¯«½×¬O§_¯à«e«á¤@­P¡HÅãµM¤£¯à¡H


§Úªº¬Ýªk¦p¤U¡G
¤Ñ¥D­Y­n§Ú­Ì²Î²Î¦b¤µ¥@¾Eµ½¡A·¥®e©ö¡A¤j·§¯«¥P´Î¤@´§¡A´N¦¨´N¤F¡C¥i¬O¡A³o¼Ë¦³·N«ä¶Ü¡H
Í¢±M­«µÛ¤Hªº¦Û¥Ñ·N§Ó¡A¥Ñ§Ú­Ì¦Û¥Ñ¨ú±Ë¡C
§Ú±À´úÃa¤H¦º«á¡A­n¨ì¤@­Ó»·Â÷¤Ñ¥Dªº¦a¤è¡A¨º¸Ì±N¬Oµh­Wªº¡C¦ý¨º¤£¬O²×ÂI¯¸¡A¥u­n¥L­Ì¿ôı¡A«K¥i­«Âk¤Ñ¥DªºÃh©ê¡C
¥Ñ©ó¤Ñ¥D¦³µL­­ªº®É¶¡¡A©Ò¥H¡u³Ì²×¡v©Ò¦³¤H³£·|±o±Ï¡C
§Ú·íµM·|°Ñ¦Ò±Ð·|ªº°V¥Ü¡A¦ý§Ú¤£»{¬°¨º¬O²×·¥ªº¯u²z¡F±Ð·|°V¥Ü¡A²z©Ê¦a¬Ý¡A¤]¥u¬O¤H¼gªº¡A¤Z¬O¤H¼gªºªF¦è¡A³£¦³¶i¨BªºªÅ¶¡¡C§O§Ñ°O¡A§Ú­Ì¤]¬O±Ð·|ªº¤@³¡¥÷¡A¦³³d¥ô¥O±Ð·|ªº°V¥Ü¶i¨B¡C

Simon

edward


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 05:00:59

¨º»ò¡A«ö·Ó¦èº¡¥Sªº»¡ªk¡A¤H¦b¦º«áªº¥Í¬¡¸Ì¡A¥i§_¤Ï®¬¦Ó¦A¦¸»·Â÷¤Ñ¥D©O¡H¦Ó¡u¥Ñ©ó¤Ñ¥D¦³µL­­ªº®É¶¡¡v¡A¥H­P¤H­Ì³Ì²×³£¤£ª¾¹D¦Û¤vªºÂk±J¦b­þ¨à©O¡H

steve

ºÞ²z¤H­û


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 08:59:25

Simon, thats a pretty good summary (I found on the internet) of the different views relevant to this discussion.

Of course, the way you look at it seems to agree with what is widely believe as ´¶±Ï½×. It is soothing and one would comfortably fit the loving God into the rosy picture. Everybody would love to think that way...one big happy family in the end...just like our favourite cantonese classic movies?

However, as in the discussion, this view is not without difficulty. You have to systematically tackle the problems there too before you can convincingly arrive at a complete answer.

The difficult part is, if all men will be saved no matter what, why on earth would anyone need to be in this Church....etc

simon


Posted -
2003/5/3 ¤U¤È 09:07:36

Edward,

¤Ñ¨Ï¤]¥i¼Z¸¨¦¨Å]°­¡A§Ú±À·Q¤H§Y¨Ï¦^Âk¤Ñ°ê¡A¤]¦³¾÷·|¡]©Î¦Û¥Ñ¡^¦A¦¸»·Â÷¤Ñ¥D¡C¥u¬O¤H¦b¦¹¥@¤w¹Á¹L»·Â÷¤Ñ¥Dªº´þ¨ý¡A¤j¬k¤£·|¦³¿³½ì¦A¸Õ¡C¦Ü¤Ö§Ú¤£·|¡C





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