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全部區域 > 神學 > 信理與神學 > 天主教唸聖母經的問題

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獨立思考


Posted -
2004/10/7 下午 04:29:24

為什么教徒向聖母和聖人要求代禱時, 要唸聖母經和聖人經? 是否聖母和聖人特別高尚, 要用唸經方式去與他們溝通?

我們唸天主經、主禱文是向神唸的, 那么向聖母和聖人唸經, 是否代表聖母和聖人的地位與耶穌同等?

另外, 我們找身邊的兄弟姊妹為自己代禱時, 為何不須用唸經的方式?

聖母和聖人就有一篇專為他們而設的禱文, 而我們在世的信徒就沒有專為我們而設的禱文, 好大細超姐!

edward


Posted -
2004/10/7 下午 04:56:58

經文按其定義和性質而言,不是純粹以天主為對象的禱文。它只是教會所公訂的禱詞,方便團體誦唸。然而因其長遠的歷史和普遍使用,不少均有著豐富的神學意義。

對天主的欽崇和對諸聖的崇敬,對天主教徒來說,是迴然不同的事。惟獨天主當受欽崇,然世間萬事萬物,值得讚美和尊敬的人亦比比皆是。

為何對聖母及諸聖的祈求代禱禱文有既定格式而我們的則沒有?我相信這是歷史因素問題。設若有一天你和我在世時的聖德,可給後世教會作為模範及得到公認的話,那一天也會有人以既定格式的禱文向你祈求的。

獨立思考


Posted -
2004/10/8 下午 01:50:19

re: 我相信這是歷史因素問題。設若有一天你和我在世時的聖德,可給後世教會作為模範及得到公認的話,那一天也會有人以既定格式的禱文向你祈求的。
-------------------------------------
咁你言下之意即係聖母和聖人高人一等啦! 喂喂喂, 你唔可以排除在世有很屬靈的弟兄姊妹喎, 又唔見有為他們而設的禱文? 咁德蘭修女有冇禱文呀? 謝婉文醫生有冇禱文呀? 教會內的神父、牧師有冇禱文呀? 陳日君有冇禱文呀? 陳志明副主教有冇禱文呀? 所有的sister and 修士有冇禱文呀?

係咪聖母和聖人之後就再沒有人稱得上是主內的弟兄姊妹呀?

edward


Posted -
2004/10/8 下午 06:29:15

覆獨思兄:

某某兄弟姊妹是否高人一等,須視乎他在聖德上是否長進及其長進的程度。

天主揀選童貞聖母瑪利亞作為救主的母親,始胎無玷,孕育了人而天主的基督,畢生完整地與天主的恩寵合作,固是高人一等。其他聖人現於天上享見天主的聖容,並為旅居在世的我們轉求,在恩寵的地位上,亦高於我們。

廣義地說,每一位在基督的教會內共融的信友,皆可稱為「聖徒」。然而在我們教會的傳統中,「聖人」一詞,只用於聖德出類拔萃、其信仰生活堪為信眾模範者。

某某應否被列為聖人,須經過既定的程序。(詳見現任教宗的Divinus Perfectionis Magister宗座典章。)

至於禱文,為在世有著各種不同需要的(如遭受災禍、不同的困難或生活處境的)兄弟姊妹,我們亦是有著某些公訂禱文的。其重點是在於旅途中的教會的各種「需要」;至於在天上的諸聖,既然已脫離了塵世的牽絆,並和天主在一起,沒甚麼「需要」了,反倒為我們轉求。這就是我們與他們說話的主題。

你若覺得某人的聖德值得稱道的話,建議你去找陳主教啦。

Cecil


Posted -
2004/10/11 下午 03:49:43

的確,教廷有一套宣聖的標準,是容許'提名'的.
數年前去世的德蘭修女不就是給提名了嗎?
有沒有為聖人而設的專有禱文? 當然有啦!

Augustine


Posted -
2004/10/11 下午 06:36:07

(1) A really good and devout Catholic (who has not died), "在世有很屬靈的弟兄姊妹", who is apparently very virtuous in everybody's eyes, is still possible, unfortunately, to commmit sin as long as he is living and therefore free.

We need to be guard against such errors as the Absolute Predestination of Calvin, or Jansenism. There is no such thing as Final Preseverance as Calvin taught (Anathema Sit!).

History often reveals apostates who die outside grace.

(2) As for those good catholics who could possibly be in Heaven after they die, and therefore have the power of intercession before God on our behalf, we are often unsure if they are really Saints in Heaven, or Souls in Purgatory, or even damned in Hell; that's why we look for miracles, as measurable proofs of their (if existed) sanctity.

If they pass this difficult and lengthy test (canonization), they'll be Saints and the Church will provide prayers for us to pray to them.

edward


Posted -
2004/10/12 下午 09:01:31

1. Final perseverance by definition exists. However one can never be absolutely certain concerning his/her own perseverance here and now.

2. What "history" reveals are not "divinely revealed dogmas". Which apostates in history does Augustine know are now certainly in Hell? The Church is ready to canonize saints and blessed, but very reluctant to nominate damned persons.

3. the Church does not necessarily provide "prayers" for us to pray for all the saints and blesseds. But I think "St./Bl. N, pray for us" is the most straight forward formula.

4. Concerning "where" a Soul is after the death of a person, what do we actually mean when we say "N is now in Purgatory"? We tend to think of the state of Purgatory in a temporal (measured in time) manner, and therefore indulgences in the past are stipulated in terms of "years". Is it necessary? Can a spiritual soul be bound in time? Any other alternatives?

Augustine


Posted -
2004/10/13 下午 05:43:35

(1) I am here refering to the use of F.P. by Calvin to justify his doctrine of irresistible grace, and which undermines human liberty and (consequently) the true gratuity of grace. I admit I used the term without proper clarification which I am now going to set forth:

Such tenets would lead us into thinking that everybody in the congregration is already a ("Elected" in Calvin's term) Saint (who could never lose grace according to Calvin) and therefore asking their prayers is the same thing as invoking canonized saints.

"However one can never be absolutely certain concerning his/her own perseverance here and now."---I agree

(2) Believing that there exists damned souls who were once Catholics during their lives and nominating precise persons (e.g. Apostate Christians) are different.

I think we do the former but not the latter. Scriptures sometimes mention the separation of the members of Church into those who presevere and those who have fallen later (but were once baptized). Matt. 3,12

(3) "the Church does not necessarily provide "prayers" for us to pray for all the saints and blesseds."---Agree

My point earlier was whether the Church provides a set prayer to a saint or not, invoking a canoized saint still provides us with us a real efficacy that is distinct from asking the prayer of just any individual faithful..

Augustine


Posted -
2004/10/13 下午 06:26:21

4) Aggree with Eduard's question about indulgences granted in years to the Souls. It seems unnecessary to measure the time a soul spend in Purgatory in years, 10 years etc.

But that still would not affect my meaning earlier, namely, that it is not so obvious who are (now) really one of the Saints, whether in Heaven or not.

And I think it is false to assert, like Calvinists do, that everyone in the pews actually are.

I am really interested to know how Calvinists are "convinced" they are really among the Elects, besides the usual "personal feeling/inspiration" explanation.

edward


Posted -
2004/10/13 下午 07:01:26

奧兄:

為了增進這個討論,不如現在就讓小弟來充當加爾文派的擁護者吧?

一次得救,永遠得救

靚仔


Posted -
2004/10/14 上午 09:31:22

愛德華兄:
______________________
We tend to think of the state of Purgatory in a temporal (measured in time) manner, and therefore indulgences in the past are stipulated in terms of "years".
______________________

我想此處有一常見的誤解,從前大赦所指的”日數”不是指替代在”煉獄”煉淨的日數,而是指替代做”補贖”的日數,因從前主教會要求悔罪者做一段很長日子(可以長達數年)的補贖,才在聖周四赦罪.
禮儀改革後為避免誤解,已改成”有限大赦”及”全大赦”.

edward


Posted -
2004/10/14 下午 06:44:10

靚仔兄所言甚是。

根據Catholic Encyclopaedia有關Indulgence的描述:

To say that an indulgence of so many days or years is granted means that it cancels an amount of purgatorial punishment equivalent to that which would have been remitted, in the sight of God, by the performance of so many days or years of the ancient canonical penance. Here, evidently, the reckoning makes no claim to absolute exactness; it has only a relative value.

煉獄的懲罰,與時間是否有關係呢?

設若煉獄作為一種境界,那個「境」和「界」是由甚麼規限呢?

童貞聖母的始胎無玷,應用了「預贖」的概念。此種概念,是否亦能應用於煉獄的情況?

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