|
作者
|
內容
|
|
獨立思考
|
Posted -
2005/1/23 上午 04:22:56
|
|
|
有意了解天主教信仰的人不就是慕道者嗎? 為什么要經過這個"收錄禮"的人才稱為慕道者? 未經"收錄禮"的人只稱為慕道前期而不是慕道者?
如果我因為這個"收錄禮"的禮儀使我內心很不平安, 不行這個禮儀就不可以去了解天主教信仰嗎?
天主教會可否在不使我跌倒的情況下(不要我行任何禮儀), 讓我去更了解天主教信仰?
|
|
靚仔
|
Posted -
2005/1/23 下午 09:25:30
|
|
|
只要向導師說明你只是想多認識天主教信仰,而未準備好/決定要領洗,大部份導師都容許參加者選擇是否參加收錄禮.
請獨立思考君獨立思考一下,
慕道班的設立是為一些對信仰有興趣,想"尋道"的人而設的.天主教的信仰不是個人的信仰,而是教會的信仰,所以也是一個加入教會的過程.
一步步,以禮儀行動加深慕道者進入這個團體的意識並沒有甚麼值得奇怪的地方.
我就有一個朋友"讀"了十年慕道班才決定領洗.
教會,起碼現代的教會不會強迫人加入,所以只要你坦誠向導師說明,我相信大部份的導師都不會有問題.
|
|
獨立思考
|
Posted -
2005/1/23 下午 11:44:12
|
|
|
如果不參加收錄禮, 是否慕道就要終止?
另外, 收錄禮是要做些什么的?
|
|
Cecil
|
Posted -
2005/1/24 上午 09:27:06
|
|
|
嗚呼,希望導師能解釋這禮是甚麼回事給慕道者們吧.
其實,梵二後的RCIA到底有多少導師們真正了解?
|
|
靚仔
|
Posted -
2005/1/24 下午 11:41:16
|
|
|
施施,不只是導師,是有多少信友了解,唉...
獨立思考君:
收錄禮是一項正式的禮儀,表明被收錄者真心誠意來教會"尋道",並給予被收錄者在教會內一個正式的身份,有教會法付予的某些權利.
當然禮儀中教會也為這些慕道者祈禱,求主幫助他們善度慕道的過程.
|
|
靚仔
|
Posted -
2005/1/24 下午 11:47:43
|
|
|
未正式接受收錄禮,理論上未正式進入"慕道期",仍是"慕道前期",所以你的問題理論上並不存在.當然人可以在慕道前期中考慮很久,也可在慕道期中考慮很久.通常導師都不會強迫人離開慕道班.反而是該人要想清楚為甚麼要留下來.
|
|
獨立思考
|
Posted -
2005/1/25 上午 12:22:27
|
|
|
收錄禮是要做些什么的? 只是祈禱?
>>並給予被收錄者在教會內一個正式的身份,有教會法付予的某些權利.
即是什么?
|
|
simon
|
Posted -
2005/1/25 上午 12:31:40
|
|
|
獨思兄：
依我所知，行了收錄禮的人，可以在死後葬在天主教墳場，未行收錄禮則沒有這項權利。
行不行收錄禮，慕道班都歡迎你。天主教的其中一項德政，是慕道期很長，讓你想清想楚才加入。
當年我參加慕道班時，是班中的「問題成年」，有些問題，至今仍未解決，但最重要的東西，我已肯定了，便接受聖洗。
|
|
獨立思考
|
Posted -
2005/1/25 上午 01:05:23
|
|
|
行過收錄禮能有天主教會的權利, 還有什么義務嗎? 雖要遵守天主教會的規則/天主教規條嗎?
收錄禮是要做些什么的? 只是祈禱嗎?
|
|
靚仔
|
Posted -
2005/1/25 上午 09:56:22
|
|
|
收錄禮只是一個很簡單的禮儀,主要部份就是一篇禱文.
"教會藉這禮儀收錄和首次祝聖他們,天主必給他們廣賜恩寵"(RCIA intro #14)
教會對他們的要求可見第十五節:"也就是需要有初步的悔改,及開始有呼求天主的祈禱習慣,以及對基督徒團體和基督徒精神有了初步體驗."
另外需要做的是在慕道者名冊內記錄被收錄者的姓名,並註明主禮者和保證人(代父母)的姓名,以及舉行收錄禮的日期和地點.(#17)
|
|
Cecil
|
Posted -
2005/1/26 下午 03:14:31
|
|
|
烏呼,我心哀哉,如果行或不行收錄禮所基於的考慮是:會或不會得到某些'權利'.
我真的最怕在教會內下下子談權利甚麼的.
上天堂是權利嗎?
天主給人上天堂是愛情,不給是道理.
|
|
靚仔
|
Posted -
2005/1/26 下午 03:25:51
|
|
|
近日看了一宗澳洲的禮儀訴訟的判詞,(包括上訴法院的判詞),發現教會法庭所思考的教會法律問題,和禮儀學所學到的有很大距離.
真的,只講獲得甚麼權利/權力,而忽略其他根本的問題,可能對我們的信仰毫無益處.
施施姐,不如你去讀教會法呀.教會真的需要有這訓練的平信徒.
|
|
simon
|
Posted -
2005/1/26 下午 09:31:29
|
|
|
cecil,
為甚麼你常常「嗚呼」呢？
接受一個儀式前問清楚權利和義務，也可被視為一種負責任的表現。
獨思兄，有問題儘管繼續問吧！我知道的雖少，但這個網站有很多有見識的人會回答你的疑問。
祝大家笑口常開。
|
|
獨立思考
|
Posted -
2005/1/26 下午 11:31:32
|
|
|
行收錄禮要不要跪下、唸天主經、聖母經、聖人經?
要不要承認天主教的教義 或 承諾遵行天主教的教規?
請大家「具体」些說明"收錄禮"的儀式是做些什么的? 因為我很擔心!
|
|
simon
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 上午 01:32:47
|
|
|
收錄禮常在彌撒中進行，彌撒已念了天主經，收錄禮沒有重複念。收錄禮也沒有規定念聖母經，也沒有規定人要下跪。
你可以視收錄禮為正式表達自己願意學習天主的道理，並接受神父的降福。
如我理解有錯誤，請各位網友指正。因以上只是我對收錄禮的印象。
|
|
Cecil
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 上午 09:52:30
|
|
|
年前看過一篇由一名聖詠團之成員寫的分享,道出他在過去十多年來為收錄禮司琴的心路,非常感人,看得我想哭,可惜現在手頭沒有那份英文文章.
SIGNING ｏｆ ｔｈｅ ｓｅｎｓｅｓ是收錄禮的主要內容 － 將人的五官交托給天主，求祂開導，其他是禱詞，教會有特定內容，其實應該問導師，讓他們好好解釋，不至白白錯過一個開導的大好機會．
|
|
靚仔
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 上午 10:08:27
|
|
|
香港教區禮儀委員會所編訂的收錄禮.
慕道者收錄禮
獨立思考君,如在聖道禮前遣散慕道者,原則上是不需跪,也不需唸天主經.
我欣賞你的堅持,但請你也尊重教會的禮儀.
收錄禮是一個人對上主莊嚴的承諾,承諾在教會的團體內學習信仰.
想學習了解天主教教義是甚麼是一回事,尋找真正的信仰是另一回事.當然兩者可以,而且時常"相遇",但人要向他的行為負責,不要在天主和教會面前作假見證.
施施姐:
可惜香港的收錄禮沒採用改良的"開悟"儀式.
而傳統的儀式更沒人敢做了.有誰不怕口水呢?
|
|
Cecil
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 上午 10:30:29
|
|
|
弊就弊在怕口水，所以許多禮儀內容的含義就錯失了．
RECEIVING THE CANDIDATES
Greeting Opening Dialogue with Candidates for the Catechumenate and with the Candidates for Post-baptismal Catechesis
Catechumens' First Acceptance of the Gospel
Candidates' Declaration of Intent
Affirmation by the Sponsors and the Assembly
Signing of the Catechumens and of the Candidates with the Cross
Signing of the Forehead of the Catechumens
Signing of the Other Senses of the Catechumens
Signing of the Forehead of the Candidates
Signing of the Other Senses of the Candidates
Concluding Player
Invitation to the Celebration of the Word of God
LITURGY OF THE WORD
就Ｓｉｇｎｉｎｇ ｏｆ ｔｈｅ Ｓｅｎｓｅｓ：－
With hands joined, the celebrant says:
Father of mercy,
we thank you for these your servants.
You have sought and summoned them in many ways
and they have turned to seek you.
You have called them today
and they have answered in our presence:
we praise you, Lord, and we bless you.
All sing or say:
We praise you, Lord, and we bless you. Return
SIGNING OF THE CATECHUMENS AND OF THE CANDIDATES WITH THE CROSS
514 Next the cross is traced on the forehead of the catechumens (or, at the discretion of the diocesan bishop, in front of the forehead for those in whose culture the act of touching may not seem proper); at the discretion of the celebrant the signing of one, several, or all of the senses may follow. The celebrant alone says the formularies accompanying each signing. Return
SIGNING OF THE FOREHEAD OF THE CATECHUMENS
515 The celebrant speaks to the catechumens and their sponsors in these or similar words!
Catechumens, come forward now with your sponsors to receive the sign of your new way of life as catechumens.
With their sponsors, the catechumens come one by one to the celebrant; with his thumb he traces a cross on the forehead; then, if there is to be no signing of the senses, the sponsor does the same. The celebrant says:
N., receive the cross on your forehead.
It is Christ himself who now strengthens you with this sign of his love. Learn to know him and follow him.
All sing or say the following or another suitable acclamation.
Glory and praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ! Return
SIGNING OF THE OTHER SENSES OF THE CATECHUMENS
516 The signing is carried out by the catechists or the sponsors. (If required by special circumstances, this may be done by assisting priests or deacons.) The signing of each sense may be followed by an acclamation in praise of Christ, for example, "glory and praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ!"
While the ears are being signed, the celebrant says:
Receive the sign of the cross on your ears,
that you may hear the voice of the Lord.
While the eyes are being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross on your eyes,
that you may see the glory of God.
While the lips are being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross on your lips,
that you may respond to the word of God.
While the breast is being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross over your heart,
that Christ may dwell there by faith.
While the shoulders are being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross on your shoulders,
that you may bear the gentle yoke of Christ.
While the hands are being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross on your hands,
that Christ may be known in the work which you do.
While the feet are being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross on your feet,
that you may walk in the way of Christ.]
Without touching them the celebrant alone makes the sign of the cross over all the candidates at once (or, if they are few, over each individually), saying:
I sign you with the sign of eternal life in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Catechumens:
Amen.
517 Next the cross is traced on the forehead of the candidates for confirmation and eucharist (or reception into the full communion of the Catholic Church); at the discretion of the celebrant the signing of one, several, or all of the senses may follow. The celebrant alone says the formularies accompanying each signing. Return
SIGNING OF THE. FOREHEAD OP THE CANDIDATES
518 The celebrant speaks to the candidates for confirmation and the eucharist and their sponsors in these or similar words.
Candidates for confirmation and the eucharist (or: reception into full communion), come forward now with your sponsors to receive the sign of your life in Christ.
With their sponsors, the candidates come one by one to the celebrant; with his thumb he traces a cross on the forehead; then, if there is to be no signing of the senses, the sponsor does the same. The celebrant says:
N., receive the cross on your forehead as a reminder of your baptism into Christ's saving death and resurrection.
All sing or say the following or another suitable acclamation.
Glory and praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ! Return
SIGNING OP THE OTHER SENSES OF THE CANDIDATES
519 The signing is carried out by the catechists or the sponsors. (If required by special circumstances, this may be done by assisting priests or deacons.) The signing of each sense may be followed by an acclamation in praise of Christ, for example, "Glory and praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ!
While the ears are being signed, the celebrant says:
Receive the sign of the cross on your ears,
that you may hear the voice of the Lord.
While the eyes are being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross on your eyes,
that you may see the glory of God.
While the lips are being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross on your lips,
that you may respond to the word of God.
While the breast is being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross over your heart,
that Christ may dwell there by faith.
While the shoulders are being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross on your shoulders,
that you may bear the gentle yoke of Christ.
While the hands are being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross on your hands,
that Christ may be known in the work which you do.
While the feet are being signed:
Receive the sign of the cross on your feet,
that you may walk in the way of Christ.]
Without touching them the celebrant alone makes the sign of the cross over all the candidates at once (or, if they are few, over each individually), saying:
I sign you with the sign of eternal life in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Candidates:
Amen. Return
CONCLUDING PRAYER
520 The celebrant concludes the signing of the forehead (and senses) with the following prayer.
Let us pray.
Almighty God, by the cross and resurrection of your Son
you have given life to your people.
Your servants have received the sign of the cross:
make them living proof of its saving power
and help them to persevere in the footsteps of Christ.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
R/ Amen. Return
INVITATION TO THE CELEBRATION OP THE WORD OF GOD
|
|
靚仔
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 下午 12:15:47
|
|
|
哎呀,小弟的老人痴呆症越來越嚴重.
收錄禮用不上口水,考核禮才有,sorry.
|
|
simon
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 下午 01:20:27
|
|
|
考核禮會用上口水嗎？我可沒察覺到。怎樣用？
|
|
靚仔
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 下午 02:34:16
|
|
|
西滿兄：
那是從前的事了．
從前的驅魔禮中，神父會用拇指蘸唾沫點在候洗者的右耳或左耳上，並說："厄弗達",之後又點在鼻端.
你聯想起某章福音章節嗎?
|
|
edward
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 下午 05:04:16
|
|
|
請問獨立思考兄你是否新教的朋友？
很多新教的弟兄們都很有原則。例如在參與其他宗派或宗教的禮儀時，是不會下跪的。獨思兄的心情，小弟可以理解。
教會可能亦是基於這個考慮，而要求慕道者（可理解為：尚未完整地接受公教信仰的人）在彌撒的聖祭禮儀前受遣散。在相當程度上，這是對個別人士良心的尊重。
反而問題是在於一些雙方均為天主教徒的婚禮彌撒。非信教的親戚朋友，在成聖體聖血的時候，應否下跪？這反而是一個更為複雜的問題。
所以這不是單純的「尊重教會禮儀」的問題。
|
|
edward
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 下午 05:09:26
|
|
|
在天主教的入門禮儀中，惟有在聖洗或領堅振的聖事中，才會要求被選者毫不含糊地宣認教會的信仰。
其他的入門聖事，其本質上只是屬於「尋求信仰」。
|
|
獨立思考
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 下午 11:51:18
|
|
|
edward,
請問什么是"在彌撒的聖祭禮儀前受遣散"?
|
|
靚仔
|
Posted -
2005/1/27 下午 11:57:16
|
|
|
愛德華兄:
尊重禮儀是從參與者的身份來說的.
收錄禮是為真的想被收錄的人而舉行的.
不是想加入天主教會而要參加收錄,我想是不尊重教會和天主的行為.
如只是觀禮者,安坐或站立都沒問題.
另外,除洗禮和堅振,就只有聖體是入門聖事了,你是想說彌撒聖祭嗎?
|
|
