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Augustine
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Posted -
2002/6/13 下午 03:51:49
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Our link in the diocese Webpage
:http://www.catholic-dlc.org.hk/latinmass.htm
Come and see. ALL information is shown there.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/6/13 下午 05:08:40
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Thanks a lot, Augustine. I'd better go by MTR. Also, I downloaded from the net a bundle (yea, a bundle) of stuff entitled "Ordinary of the Tridentine Mass (1962 Ed.)". Would that do for the Saturday ceremony? It's bilingual in LAtin and English.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2002/6/14 上午 10:56:50
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Yes the edition(1962) is OK
IN fact you don't need to bring them because we got our books, missales and liber usualis to share.
A Latin-English parallel of the Ordinarium is also readily available here too.
Glad to see you people there!
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Augustine
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Posted -
2002/6/17 下午 09:33:20
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"Owing to the era in which he lived the Mass which Padre Pio offered was according to the Missal as it existed before the Second Vatican Council (the so-called Tridentine Mass, named after the Council of Trent). When the new Rites began to appear in the mid 1960s (finalized in 1969 after his death) Padre Pio continued to celebrate the old."
So there are Traditional Latin Mass celebrated after the Vatian2
long before the Indult granted by Pope John Paul II?
Source: http://www.ewtn.com/padrepio/priest/Mass.htm
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/6/18 上午 10:47:42
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曾經在網上看過一些diehard的拉丁迷,說不定他們自家真的有這樣做也說不定。
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Augustine
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Posted -
2002/7/2 上午 09:06:24
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HI Everybody,
I am here in Berkeley CA!
I attended the Tridentine Mass in the
St. Mary Margaret' Cathedral here in Oakland.
It is marvelous! There are 3 masses every Sunday,
all packed through.
On 29/6 I saw as many as 1500 people in a single mass!
I am really amazed at so popular the Tridentine Mass is here in California.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/7/3 下午 03:23:16
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I heard they were immensely popular in many other Catholic places, too. Perhaps it's time the HK Diocese move it to a larger and more convenient place.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2002/7/4 上午 12:58:50
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Absolutely
You know there is circular relation here:
The more beautiful the church is<----->The more people get attracted and come
So lack of publicity does justify the apparent
"mild" reception of the Tridentine Mass.
So people don't come not because they dislike it
but because they don't know about it.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/7/4 下午 03:36:57
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ANd I think one of the 'older' (pre-Vatican II) and 'smaller' churches (not mass centres) will be quite attractive to the interested faithful. Rosary Church, St. Margaret's Church, St. Anthony's Church, Christ the King Chapel...
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PAUL
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Posted -
2002/7/5 下午 04:09:02
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其實現在教區有沒有意思推廣拉丁文彌撒的構思呢？？以本人認為教區並沒有這個意思，現在教區並不肯允許各堂區開這種彌撒，實在有點兒可惜。不然，教區應該加多些少的資源，讓各教友能認識一下都是一件好事呀！！
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PAUL
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Posted -
2002/8/29 下午 03:11:54
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can anyone suggest me a book or anything else which can help me to uderstand the theology of each part of the latin mass, because when I attented the mass, I didn't know why the acolyte need to raise up the cope of the priest, when he was consecration the host/wine??
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/8/30 下午 03:40:04
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我唔知你係未指提起見祭帔,即很像"扯衫尾"的那個動作.其實在獻香時也有此動作.
我的禮儀學教授說,那是因為從前的祭衣要著很多層,而且質地較厚,所以很重,便有用輔祭提起的需要,以方便隻手活動.
我沒有考究過,不知是否真確.
但"神學"原因則可待查.
另一有趣問題是,是否每一動作都有/要有"神學"原因?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/8/30 下午 03:42:24
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Prof. Jungmann 的The Mass of the Roman Rite,應是其中一本權威著作.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/8/30 下午 05:08:45
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另外我想你指的應是Chasuble,而不是cope.
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PAUL
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Posted -
2002/9/1 下午 08:51:14
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多謝靚仔兄的指教，我當然同意不可能每個部分都有它的神學意思啦，但我知道自四世紀後便有很多人將一些神學／聖經配合上彌撒禮儀上，所以我都想多些知道禮儀當中會否有一些關神學上的意思呢？？
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PAUL
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Posted -
2002/10/31 下午 06:40:05
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拉丁彌撒各部分都賦予一些神學意義，例如
In Nomine Patris - prays in gethesemane
Kyrie eleison 三次，因為伯多祿三次不認主
Lavabo..... ﹣意思係比拉多洗手，然後不理會之類的意義，其實現在彌撒當中有否保留呢？？又或者有無需要保留呢？？
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Augustine
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Posted -
2002/11/1 下午 02:02:12
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So called theological meaning may well be inserted after the practices are actually in use for some period of time.
Eg. Lavabo may originally be a practical need---to clean hands (and minds as the Psalm asserts)
And the triple kyrie may be just a form of artistic taste, but 3 is a "good" number so we adopt it.
a good reference: Archdale A. King: The Roman Liturgy
1950 Burns and Oates
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Jonathan_in_vancouver
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Posted -
2002/12/30 下午 04:11:35
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大家好！小弟在綱上找到這討論室，覺得很高興有像我這樣的年青人望傳統拉丁彌撒。
關於<<每日彌撒讀經>>，小弟正在把它數碼化...
網址是http://www.traditional.ca
大家可send email 給我: admin@joncyc.net
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Augustine
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Posted -
2002/12/30 下午 11:24:34
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Bonjour Jonathan Nice to meet you!
Do you have the Traditional Mass there in Vancouver? Where?
Do you sing the Gregorian Propers as in the Graduale?
You website, OPUS MAGNUS! Thank you so much for the triple comparison table.
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Jonathan_in_vancouver
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Posted -
2002/12/31 下午 03:44:30
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你好，Augustine, nice meeting you too!
逢主日，在温哥華有兩處可望傳統拉丁彌撒的地方﹕
一) 教區FSSP Ryan神父在二埠市(City of New Westminster)開的傳統拉丁彌撒 [12:30pm]
二）聖庇護十世修會Boulet或Herkel神父在蘭里(Langley) 開的傳統拉丁彌撒 [9:00am]
我是在唱經班 (Schola) 的，大前天我們才為友人的婚配彌撒中唱了全部Propers, 即包括 (Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory, Communion)。因為我們平常只用簡單的聖詠調子(Psalm Tone)唱經，今次堂區教友們和其他觀禮者也讚嘆Gregorian Chant 的美麗啊! 我覺得它很能幫助信友對聖三作出直線敬拜！
未知各下是怎樣認識傳統拉丁彌撒的呢？
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/1 下午 11:29:36
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The Indult 1962 Mass here in HK is organized by several enthusiastic young men, all below 20 when they started. They started the mass and I was
brought to there by a Friar Minor friend and since then I was fascinated with the Traditional Mass and volunteer as the altar server. Today I am one of the core helpers there.
Unfortuunately the FSSP is not here so the mass is said by an old PIME priest.
The Society Of St. Pius X DOES have there mass in HK but I know very few about them but their website showed their existence in HK and Philippines.
We don't sing the Propers except in very solemn occasions like Nov 2 or Christmas. But because of the lack of schola members who knows Latin and Chant well enough to sing the Graduale, Tractus...we(which actually means I alone)always do the Introitus only. Hope that may change later.
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Jonathan_in_vancouver
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Posted -
2003/1/2 下午 03:41:26
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Well, 我們主日的唱經班也只會唱Alleluia吧，因為我們也不夠人手。我想在這新的一年提出唱進臺經及亞肋路亞。
我認識聖庇護十世修會亞洲區的District General Couture神父，我會問問他香港有否開彌撒。
我在網頁上見到你們的彌撒時間是星期六三時半，請問是否開"Inticipated Mass"? 我希望不是吧...
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/2 下午 03:49:25
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聖庇護十世會據知在九龍YMCA有不定期的拉丁彌撒.
我想各位網友留意,聖庇護十世會是一個裂教團體.其會士所施行的聖禮都是非法的.明知而故意在他們的手中領聖事是違反教會紀律的.
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Jonathan_in_vancouver
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Posted -
2003/1/3 上午 01:43:17
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靚仔，很高興認識你。
噢原來聖庇護十世修會是裂教的！我真是不明白啊。我還以為聖公會、浸信會、加爾文教會、路德會、衞理會、老派天主教會、東正教會、神召會、長老教會、改革宗教會等才是裂教的...
我是讀了以下的信件後才敢望它們的彌撒和頜聖事，其中說明在那裏望彌撒沒有罪罰(並能作Sunday Obligation的)而且聖事是有效的。還有的便是即使在那裏望彌撒也不能說是"對裂教行為的支持"(甚至是在奉獻時給錢)。
我因想知道這些信件的真偽性，所以已開始草擬問題並決定上書羅馬。
小弟不才，請靚仔指點。
LETTER OF THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR CHRISTIAN UNITY
Under signature of Edward I. Cardinal Cassidy, President (May 3,1994)
"The situation of the members of this Society [SSPX] is
an internal matter of the Catholic Church. The Society
is not another Church or Ecclesial Community in the
meaning used in the Directory. Of course, the Mass
and Sacraments administered by the priests of the
Society are valid. The bishops are validly ... consecrated."
LETTER OF THE PONTIFICAL COMMISSION "ECCLESIA DEI"
Under Signature of Rev. Msgr. Camille Perl, Secretary
May 28, 1996; repeated in Protocol N. 236/98 of March 6, 1998
"It is true that participation in the Mass and sacraments at the
chapels of the Society of St. Pius X does not of itself constitute
'formal adherence to the schism.'"
September 27, 2002
1. In the strict sense you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by
attending a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of Saint Pius
X.
2. ...If your intention is simply to participate in Mass according to
the 1962 Missal for the sake of devotion, this would not be a sin.
3. It would seem that a modest contribution to the collection at Mass
could be justified.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/3 下午 12:09:49
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Cardinal Cassidy的信看來是在講解合一指南的應用範圍"used in the Directory",
我想他在指出sspx的問題不是他部門面對的問題.他的合一部門的對象是其他基督宗教的派別,有別於sspx指他們自己才是正統的天主教.況且宗座有特別設立的部門處理sspx的問題,即下文提到的Ecclesia Dei
閱讀文件不能斷章取義,我找到的文件編號和日子有別 N.343/98
Rome, 27 October 1998
但引文一樣.
While it is true that participation in the Mass at the chapels of the Society of St Pius X does not of itself constitute "formal adherence to the schism" 之後便說,
such adherence can come over a period of time as one slowly imbibes a schismatic mentality which separates itself from the teaching of the Supreme Pontiff and the entire Catholic Church classically exemplified in A Rome and Econe Handbook which states in response to question 14 that the SSPX defends the traditional catechisms and therefore the Old Mass, and so attacks the Novus Ordo, the Second Vatican Council and the New Catechism, all of which more or less undermine our unchangeable Catholic faith.
It is precisely because of this schismatic mentality that this Pontifical Commission has consistently discouraged the faithful from attending Masses celebrated under the aegis of the Society of St Pius X.
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