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Ignatius
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Posted -
2006/4/30 下午 09:23:46
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人家集不集中精神參與彌撒,同你有乜關係？
當然我們也可以問,特倫多彌撒改用本地語言,不也可以嗎？
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Augustine
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Posted -
2006/5/1 上午 12:00:31
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Dominus meus, et Deus meus......
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Augustine
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Posted -
2006/5/1 上午 12:01:53
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Ecce quam bonum et quam iucundum habitare fratres in unum.
Sicut unguentum in capite quod descendit in barbam barbam Aaron quod descendit in ora vestimenti eius
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FANNY
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Posted -
2006/5/1 上午 10:19:27
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為我當然無問題,但為神父們就大大問題,因為他們也想知道是否他們的問題,(例如他們說的道理是否動聽,聲線是否令人入睡等)從而令神職人員改善,令信友更留心,這不是的想法,而是神父親自講的.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/5/2 上午 10:58:07
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點解張修士(按服飾應是當天的副執事)會在宣讀福音時,用頭頂住本福音?幾有趣啊.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/5/2 上午 11:31:51
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fanny,
你對現時的彌撒感到透不過氣可以有很多原因,我不是你,當然不可能完全了解.
但我想你思考一個問題,是現時彌撒舉行的方式使你透不過氣,還是其他問題?你有參加過胡樞機的殯葬彌撒嗎?它沒有任何拉丁,以現時的彌撒方式舉行,它有令你透不過氣嗎?
我不知你有沒有參加過特倫多的"said mass",真的有你所希望的氣氛嗎?
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MItrophanes
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Posted -
2006/5/2 下午 09:28:59
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说到副执事"顶经",在过去似乎很常见啊.
当然,理想状态是在"经台"上诵福音.但是除了一些很古的圣堂,16世纪以来的天主教堂是很罕有专门的经台的(因为不常做'大礼'弥撒)福音习惯在祭台角上念,自然就用不到经台了.
于是副执事就在大礼弥撒里充当人体经台,用头顶是为了表示尊重吧,也免得和执事"面面相觑"而尴尬,顶重要是免食执事的唾沫星.
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MItrophanes
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Posted -
2006/5/2 下午 09:33:29
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照片太多,看得眼花缭乱,但是好像少一样物件.就是主教"安座"时候铺在膝盖上,让主教放手的那块布....叫做什么来的????我记不得名字了.
还有,有些主教弥撒的细节没有看见,比如主教念台下经的时候是不戴手带的.照片上似乎看不清楚.
不过总体来说应该是很不错的一次礼仪吧....
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Augustine
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Posted -
2006/5/2 下午 11:35:17
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The piece of cloth is called "gremial". We were not able to acquire one so on the day we didn't have it.
On that day, the bishop only puts on his maniple before the "indulgentiam" when the subdiaconus took it from the Evangelistarium, then gave it to the diaconus, then the diaconus put it on the bishop's left hand.
We tried to adhere as strictly as possible to the Caeremoniale Episcoporum.
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FANNY
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Posted -
2006/5/4 下午 09:09:22
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當天,主教服飾應有以下欠缺
(1)手套
(2)gremial
(3)鞋, socks
(4)Mantelletta
(5)cappa magna
我不知是否因為不是Pontifical Mass at the Thorne的原故呢?
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FANNY
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Posted -
2006/5/4 下午 09:31:16
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Here is the letter of the Cardinal Bacci and Cardinal Ottaviani to the Pope Paul VI dated on 5 September 1969
Most Holy Father :
Having carefully examined and presented for the scrutiny of others the New Order of Mass (Novus Ordo Missae) prepared by the experts of Commission for the Implementation of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, and after lengthy prayer and reflection, we feel obliged before God and Your Holiness to set forth the following considerations:
1. The accompanying Critical Study is the work of a select group of theologians, liturgists and pastors of souls. Despite its brevity, the study shows quite clearly that the Novus Ordo Missae - considering the new elements susceptible to widely different interpretations which are implied or taken for granted - represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session 22 of the Council of Trent. The "canons" of the rite definitively fixed at that time erected an insurmountable barrier against any heresy which might attack the integrity of the Mystery.
2. The pastoral reasons put forth to justify such a grave break with tradition, even if such reasons could still hold good in the face of doctrinal considerations, do not seem sufficient to us. The innovations in the Novus Ordo and the fact that all that is of perennial value finds only a minor place - if it subsists at all - could well turn into a certainty the suspicion, already prevalent, alas, in many circles, that truths which have always been believed by the Christian people can be changed or ignored without infidelity to that sacred deposit of doctrine to which the Catholic faith is bound forever. The recent reforms have amply demonstrated that new changes in the liturgy could not be made without leading to complete bewilderment on the part of the faithful, who already show signs of restiveness and an indubitable lessening of their faith. Among the best of the clergy, the result is an agonizing crisis of conscience, numberless instances of which come to our notice daily.
3. We are certain that these considerations, prompted by what we hear from the living voice of shepherds and the flock, will find an echo in the heart of Your Holiness, always so profoundly solicitous for the spiritual needs of the children of the Church. The subjects for whose benefit a law is made have always had the right, nay the duty, to ask the legislator to abrogate the law, should it prove to be harmful.
At a time, therefore, when the purity of the faith and the unity of the Church suffer cruel lacerations and still greater perils, daily and sorrowfully echoed in the words of You, our common Father, we most earnestly beseech Your Holiness not to deprive us of the possibility of continuing to have recourse to the integral and fruitful Missal of St. Pius V, so highly praised by Your Holiness, and so deeply loved and venerated by the whole Catholic world.
Anyone can say that they are heretics or Orthodoxy??
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Augustine
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Posted -
2006/5/5 上午 12:40:55
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The Ottaviani Intervention 1969:
http://www.unavoceca.org/Files
A small introduction on Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, Prefect of the Holy Office (now the Congregation of the Divine Faith):
http://www.fiu.edu/~mirandas/bios-o.htm#Ottaviani
And on Cardinal Antonio Bacci:
http://www.fiu.edu/~mirandas/bios-b.htm#Bacci
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Mitrophanes
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Posted -
2006/5/5 上午 02:01:48
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(4)Mantelletta
(5)cappa magna
这两样都不是弥撒的祭衣啊
再说,没有用大喀帕,估计是照顾地方狭小,怕进了头容不得尾.....
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Mitrophanes
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Posted -
2006/5/5 上午 02:11:57
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有一次,一个江南地方的主教去乡间做弥撒,就穿了CAPPA MANGA进堂,乡下的教友少见多怪,以为这个"衫尾"是收捐的,就纷纷向里面投钱.主教只顾庄严地往前走,后面提尾的跟主教先生也不知怎么好,结果就一路这么进去,到是收着不少钱.
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THOMA
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Posted -
2006/5/5 下午 03:01:49
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不錯！Mantelletta及Cappa Magna都不可稱為禮儀服飾，又正如主教的Galero一樣
奧斯定兄弟，你所quote的網址並不正確，無法瀏覽，大家可嘗試看以下這個：
http://www.unavoceca.org/Files/ottaviani.html
我看到大家的討論後，有一點真是不明白，究竟現在是討論特倫多拉丁彌撒好壞之處還是談及拉丁文的好壞之處呢??我認為都是探討具體的問題為佳．究竟新的保祿六世彌撒和舊的特倫多拉丁彌撒除語言外，是否還有其他不同呢？是否進步了??是否真的比以往容易理解呢?要是真的是因為人們聽不懂拉丁文，那麼為何要作大幅度的改革，我們只需將禮儀語言改作本地語便足夠啦，但是似乎並不單是這個問題．不知大家有何見解，願聞其詳．
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edward
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Posted -
2006/5/5 下午 03:49:12
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Cardinal Ottaviani的那封信，乃寫於新彌撒禮規被定型之前。
大家也可以看看這篇：
In Defense Of The Pauline Mass
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THOMA
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Posted -
2006/5/5 下午 07:15:42
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I think the validity of the reformed rite of Mass, as issued in Latin by Paul VI in 1969, must be judged according to the same criteria as the validity of the other sacraments; namely matter, form and intention. The defective theology and meaning of the rites, eliminating as they do every reference to the principal propitiatory end of sacrifice, do not necessarily invalidate the Mass. The intention of doing what the Church does, even if the priest understands it imperfectly, is sufficient for validity. With respect to the matter, pure wheaten bread and true wine from grapes are what is required for validity. The changes in the words of the form in the Latin original, although certainly illicit and unprecedented in the history of the Church, do not alter the substance of its meaning, and consequently do not invalidate the Mass.
However, we all know that such a New Mass celebrated in Latin is an oddity, doomed to extinction by the very fact of the reform. The validity of the New Mass that is actually celebrated in today’s parishes more than 50 years later I think that is a quite different question. Additives to the host sometimes invalidate the matter. Such as I remembered that we discussed before at this forum about the “rice wine mass”. The change in the translation from the words of Our Lord, “for many” to the ecumenically acceptable “for all” throws at least some doubt on the validity of the form. Most importantly, however, is the fact that the intention of the Church of offering up a true sacrifice in propitiation for the sins of the living and the dead has been obliterated for 30 years. In fact, most liturgies present the contrary intention of a celebration by the community of the praise of God. In such circumstances it is very easy for a priest to no longer have the intention of doing what the Church does, and for the New Mass to become invalid for this reason, although the problem is that this is hidden and nobody knows. But some people also afraid of the validity of the New mass. I need to express even at the traditional Mass if the priest is not expresses the true intention of the Church does, and in a clear and unambiguous manner, that everyone can be certain of the priest’s intention, the old mass is same invalid. But I think the most dangerous things are especially in the case of manifestly modernist priests, because it cannot be easily lifted or removed, they will teach you the bad teaching which is not the church teaching, and will danger to your faith. So I think now we spoke was not the problem of “Yes or No / Valid or invalid”, now the problem is “good or bad”.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2006/5/6 上午 01:43:18
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Thanks THOMA, my link is updated to the unavoce site.
The Ottaviani Intervention
Traditional form for declaration of Intention before Mass, to be said by any priest about to say Mass:
EGO VOLO celebrare Missam, et conficere Corpus et Sanguinem Domini nostri Jesu Christi, juxta ritum sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae, ad laudem omnipotentis Dei totiusque Curiae triumphantis, ad utilitatem meam totiusque Curiae militantis, pro omnibus, qui se commendaverunt orationibus meis in genere et in specie, et pro felici statu sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae. Amen.
Or, in English:
MY PURPOSE is to celebrate Mass and to make the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the rite of the holy Roman Church, to the praise of almighty God and of the whole Church triumphant in heaven, for my own welfare and that of the whole Church militant on earth, for all who in general and in particular have commended themselves to my prayers, and for the well-being of the holy Roman Church. Amen
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FANNY
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Posted -
2006/5/7 下午 02:21:42
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THOMA:
I want to ask you Is it true that a heretic, who does not believe in the Real Presence, can have the intention of doing what the Church does, and celebrate a valid Mass? can you tell me the answer of that
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edward
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Posted -
2006/5/7 下午 10:02:03
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Thoma:
雖然小弟認為把「pro multis」譯為「for all」是一項糟透了的譯文，但它並無損本地語言聖事的有效性。詳情請參閱聖禮部的覆文。（Notitiae 6 [1970] 39-40）
你亦可參閱以下這篇文章：
The Sacramental Validity Of "For You And For All"
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Ignatius
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Posted -
2006/5/8 上午 08:19:58
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香港教會恢復舉行特倫多拉丁彌撒五年，部分教友希望提高認受性
【天亞社香港訊】在慶祝獲准再次舉行特倫多（又稱脫利騰）拉丁文彌撒五周年之際，香港教區的一些教友向主教請求更大的認受性。這彌撒屬於梵蒂岡第二屆大公會議前的禮儀。
教區的特倫多拉丁文彌撒小組召集人劉偉傑表示，他們已於今年初向陳日君樞機申請，將特倫多彌撒認可為主日提前彌撒。
劉氏四月廿六日向天亞社說，他們按陳樞機的要求，搜集其他教區舉行拉丁文彌撒的資料寫成報告，連同七十多位經常參加拉丁文彌撒的教友的簽名一併呈交。小組代表於五月向教區神長解釋報告內容。
已故的香港教區胡振中樞機於二零零一年特准舉行此項彌撒。為紀念禮儀獲准舉行五周年，小組邀請陳樞機四月廿二日主持了一台主教大禮彌撒，有六十多人參加。
該大禮彌撒在特倫多彌撒中屬於最隆重的禮儀，由主教主持。由於香港首次舉行此彌撒，聖伯多祿司鐸友愛會華裔馬來西亞籍的王國平神父獲邀請，由澳洲悉尼到香港襄禮。
在彌撒後的「與主教真情對話」部分，一位中年教友詢問陳樞機，能否認可隔周星期六舉行的拉丁文彌撒為主日提前彌撒。
陳樞機答稱，教區要慎重地考慮小組的申請。他個人抱持開放態度，並說他很喜歡拉丁文聖歌。他會鼓勵有興趣的神父和修士，學習這個已有一千五百年歷史的優美教會傳統。
他又提到，教宗本篤十六世曾於三月廿三日在梵蒂岡舉行的樞機會議中，曾討論與瑪塞．勒菲弗（Marcel Lefebvre）總主教的追隨者修和的可能性。勒菲弗總主教及其追隨者反對梵二禮儀改革提出以本地語文舉行彌撒。
七十四歲的陳樞機強調，梵二的禮儀改革和本地化不會走回頭路。因此，教區祇會容許而非鼓勵教友參與特倫多拉丁文彌撒。
在考慮是否批准特倫多彌撒成為主日提前彌撒時，陳樞機亦指出一些技術問題，像現時的特倫多彌撒在週六下午三時舉行，時間上還未到日落。
教區秘書長兼拉丁文彌撒小組顧問李亮神父四月廿五日向天亞社說，本地教會領袖將討論有關申請。他指出，即使小部分教友希望經常參與這種傳統彌撒，但有關禮儀祇可由主教委派的神父在指定的時間及地點舉行。
胡樞機特准根據一九六二年出版的《羅馬彌撒經書》舉行拉丁文彌撒，以一年為試驗期。在評估有關情況後，教區批准將試驗期逐年延長；由去年八月開始，教區將試驗期定為兩年。
特倫多大公會議（1545-63）為拉丁文彌撒定下標準，經過多次修改後，最終制定了一九六二年版的《羅馬彌撒經書》，因此拉丁文彌撒又稱為「特倫多彌撒」。
參與四月廿二日大禮彌撒的六十位教友中，逾半為中年和年長教友，他們都希望保留這項傳統禮儀。其餘參禮者為年輕人。
一位陳姓中年教友對天亞社說，她格外留心拉丁文禮儀背後的意思，有助她更投入對天主的熱愛。
廿多歲的司琴陳美錞向天亞社說，她欣賞拉丁文聖歌的藝術美，能營造濃厚的祈禱氣氛。
約在兩年前，彌撒小組的另一位顧問慈幼會張心銳修士，編輯和出版了一本拉丁文、英文和中文對照，並輔以插圖和說明的彌撒經書。他四月廿二日向天亞社解釋：「剛開始時，別人曾批評我們，教友無法明白拉丁文彌撒的內容。如今，這本彌撒經書幫了很大的忙。」
這位廿二歲的修士說，經常參與拉丁文彌撒的教友，不分年紀，都認同梵二的禮儀改革。他指出：「我們是為了拉丁文禮儀的隆重和優美而前來，許多人在各自堂區都有積極參與。」
除了是次的主教大禮彌撒外，彌撒小組還於四至七月期間，舉辦拉丁文課和其他培育活動以慶祝五周年紀念。
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THOMA
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Posted -
2006/5/8 下午 02:26:58
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愛德華:
多謝你給我的詳盡文章,但由於太長,要費時去研究,但太致上我都估計到文章意義
Fanny:
我們是否相識呢,你的問題似乎超出左我們談論問題,但待我有空才回答你
依納爵
請問天亞社的報導會否有英文版本呢?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/5/9 上午 11:42:03
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HONG KONG Tridentine Association Hopes For Greater Recognition Of Latin Mass After Five-year 'Trial'
HONG KONG (UCAN) -- The Tridentine Latin Mass Association of Hong Kong Diocese has celebrated the fifth anniversary of the revival of the pre-Vatican II Mass here and has asked the bishop to raise the status of their liturgy.
Association coordinator Cyril Law Wai-kit told UCA News April 26 that early this year association members asked the Hong Kong bishop to approve their Saturday liturgy as an anticipated Sunday Mass, allowing those who attend to fulfill their Sunday Mass obligation.
Law said Cardinal Joseph Zen Ze-kiun of Hong Kong responded by asking the association to research how other dioceses handle such practices. The association has handed in a study report and 70 signatures from people who regularly attend the Latin Mass, he continued, adding that representatives of the association are set to explain the report to local Church leaders in May.
On April 22, Cardinal Zen presided at a Pontifical Mass in Latin to mark the fifth anniversary of the revival in the diocese of the Mass in use worldwide before the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965). The liturgies began in 2001 under an indult, a special permission or privilege, granted by Cardinal Zen's predecessor, the late Cardinal John Baptist Wu Cheng-chung.
A Pontifical Mass, which involves more elaborate rites than a regular Mass, is led by a bishop. Sydney-based Father Duncan Wong, a Chinese Malaysian of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, was invited to assist Cardinal Zen during the liturgy, as it is not familiar to the Hong Kong Church.
Father Wong told UCA News April 22 that more liturgical training for priests and seminarians should be provided if the head of the diocese decides to allow the Latin Mass to be celebrated more often. He explained that such training should be more than just providing courses in Latin language.
At a question-and-answer session that followed the anniversary Mass, a middle-aged layman surnamed Yam asked Cardinal Zen if he would grant special permission to make the Latin Mass an anticipated Sunday Mass.
Cardinal Zen told Yam and some 60 other participants that the diocese is considering carefully the association's application on this matter. The cardinal said he personally likes Latin hymns and would encourage interested priests and seminarians to learn more about "this beautiful Church tradition" that has a history going back centuries.
Recently, he continued, Pope Benedict XVI discussed the possibility of reconciling with followers of the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who opposed the Mass being said in vernacular languages, which Vatican Council II made the norm. The pope brought up the matter during a meeting at the Vatican with cardinals on March 23, just before he made the Hong Kong bishop and 14 other prelates cardinals.
While affirming that liturgical reform and inculturation as defined by Vatican Council II remains the norm, Cardinal Zen said the diocese would continue to "permit but not encourage" Catholics to attend Mass in Latin.
The 74-year-old prelate also cited some technical issues related to the possibility of legitimizing the Tridentine association's Mass as an anticipated Sunday Mass. He noted, for example, that the liturgy usually takes place at 3 p.m., long before sunset on Saturday.
Father Lawrence Lee Len, diocesan chancellor and adviser of the Tridentine Latin Mass Association, confirmed to UCA News April 25 that local Church leaders would discuss the issue. While noting that a small number of Catholics are eager to attend the traditional Mass every week, he said this liturgy is allowed only at designated times and places, led by priests assigned by the bishop.
Cardinal Wu's indult granted the use of a 1962 edition of the Roman Missal under certain conditions on a one-year trial basis. After reviewing the situation, the diocese approved the extension of the trial period annually. In August 2005, it approved a two-year trial period. "Tridentine" is an adjective referring to Tridentum, the Latin name for the Italian city of Trent (Trento). It often is used to describe the Latin Mass, which was standardized by the Council of Trent (1545-63), even though that Mass was revised several times since, culminating in the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal.
More than half the 60 participants of the April 22 Mass were middle-aged and elderly Catholics who wish to preserve the traditional liturgy. A middle-aged Catholic surnamed Chan, who regularly attends the Latin Mass, told UCA News it helps her become more devoted to God because she pays extra effort in appreciating each part of the liturgy.
Maria Chan Mei-shun, organist for the Masses, who is in her 20s, told UCA News she appreciates Latin hymns for generating a prayerful atmosphere.
About two years ago, Salesian Brother Carlos Cheung Sum-yui, another adviser of the association, edited and published a missal in Latin, English and Chinese with explanations and illustrations of the priest's actions in the Tridentine-style Mass. "We were questioned if Mass attendees would understand the Latin liturgy, so this missal helps," the 22-year-old seminarian told UCA News April 22.
He clarified that regular participants at the Latin Mass, young and old, have no problem with the liturgical reforms of Vatican Council II. "We come for the solemnity and the beauty of the liturgy, and many do participate actively in their own parishes on Sundays," he said.
Besides the Pontifical Mass, the association plans to celebrate their fifth anniversary with activities including Latin classes and formation seminars from April to July.
END
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Ignatius
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Posted -
2006/5/9 下午 01:24:49
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Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter 聖伯鐸司鐸友愛會是一個怎樣的團體？有沒有可以介紹一下。
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THOMA
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Posted -
2006/5/9 下午 02:20:38
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請參看以下網址:
http://www.fssp.org
http://www,fssp.net
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