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Fanny
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Posted -
2006/7/21 上午 11:31:00
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我曾在網上看到很多有關Coat of Arms的文章，但有一點想問是否每個教區都會有它們所屬徽號，在外國：特別是歐洲，每個教區均有它們的Coat of Arms，以往在香港教區成立以前也曾有屬於PIME的徽號，故此，本人希望知道是否每個教區都需有它們的徽號？
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Cecil
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Posted -
2006/7/21 下午 04:56:37
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每位主教都有他的牧徽.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/7/22 上午 09:42:13
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不是每個教區都有自己的紋章.香港教區就沒有.
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Fanny
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Posted -
2006/7/22 下午 12:46:58
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為何呢??鄰近教區又有沒有呢??
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/7/26 上午 11:09:07
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正如不是間間公司都有自己的logo一樣.
教會法沒有規定有,所以便不是個個教區有.
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馬里尼
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Posted -
2006/7/26 下午 08:35:31
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ernst
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Posted -
2006/11/17 上午 02:20:02
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As far as i know, we do have a diocesan coat of arms. It's our lady of Immaculate Conception, whom our cathedral is dedicated to. Any comment?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/11/17 上午 09:45:48
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我們的主教公署的印章的圖案確是無原罪聖母,但那卻不是"coat of arms".
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edward
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Posted -
2006/11/17 下午 12:37:45
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「Coat of Arms」應該是指教區主教的牧徽吧？很多時牧徽上都有一金句，作為該位主教牧職的寫照。
胡樞機：veritatem in caritate
陳樞機：ipsi cura est
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/11/17 下午 02:59:19
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edward,
那又不是,有些教區是有自己的coat of arms的.
有些教宗及主教的牧徽中就有他們曾牧守的教區的牧徽.
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Ignatius
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Posted -
2006/11/20 下午 01:55:17
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我們教區的區徽正是主教公署的印章–無原罪聖母.
因為無原罪聖母是我們教區的主保.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/11/20 下午 03:10:33
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大家可能對「紋章學」沒有甚麼認識,主教公署所用的印章,很明顯不是一個coat of arms.因為它並沒有一個正常教區牧徽的特徵.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/11/20 下午 03:20:00
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Archbishop of Cincinnati
Archdiocese of Cincinnati
這個例子就見到教區的徽章和主教牧徽的分別
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Ignatius
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Posted -
2006/11/20 下午 04:15:22
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澳門教區的區徽
http://www.macaudiocese.org.mo/
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ernst
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Posted -
2006/12/5 上午 07:37:46
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Dear bro. 靚仔 & Ignatius,
「紋章學」, aren't you referring "heraldry" in English?
我們教區的區徽正是主教公署的印章–無原罪聖母.
I totally agree with it. The seal currectly used by the chancery is already the "Arm" of the diocese if not "coat of Arm".
大家可能對「紋章學」沒有甚麼認識,主教公署所用的印章,很明顯不是一個coat of arms.因為它並沒有一個正常教區牧徽的特徵.
教區牧徽的特徵?? Are you referring to the Mitre and Crosier? As far as I understand,"personal" coat of arm of a prelate alone requires the Roman hat, the crosier and Metropolitan Cross if is an Archbishop.
The Diocesan arm and Personal Coat of arm of the Archbishop of Cincinnati, in my opinion, couldn't apply to our case. The reason is nearly ALL catholic dioceses of English-speaking countries follow the Pre-Reformation English traditions using a "gothic" low Mitre, which is still preserved in the Church of England(Anglican). If you have noticed the Cincinnati's diocesan coat of arms, a single mitre is used instead of a Roman hat. According to the current usage of Roman Catholic Heraldry, only the Roman/Satuno hat is perimtted to display above the diocesean Shield. (You may refer to the coat of arms of the Archbishpic of Cologne, a Red Cardinal Hat)
澳門教區的區徽
I have reservation on it, though it's displayed on their diocesan homepage. To me, it is nothing more than a bishop's personal Coat of Arms. The Hat obviously is a Green pontifical one with 6 tassels. As for the Circlet, it's common in the good old days for a bishop to include it in their coat of arms, meaning his temporal power.
My doubt is~~~I don't think the Wheel shaped shield represets macao itself!!! Hope someone could help to clarify here. Thx!
As for the Motto, its only a practice optional for a prelate to display it under his Coat of Arms but not a "Must".
胡樞機：veritatem in caritate
陳樞機：ipsi cura est
我們的主教公署的印章的圖案確是無原罪聖母,但那卻不是"coat of arms".
Yes. What we could common see is the "Seal" of the Chancery of the Diocese but not the Coat of Arms itself. But It's a practice to have the design of a Diocesan Coat of Arms taken directly from the Diocesan Seal or display the figure of the Patron Saint. Therefore, our Diocesan arm/shield is the figure of our lady of Immaculate Conception as the Seal.
Anyone could kindly help to confirm?Thx
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/12/5 上午 09:56:58
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是的,我是在說heraldry.
"Only the Roman/Satuno hat is perimtted to display above the diocesean Shield. (You may refer to the coat of arms of the Archbishpic of Cologne, a Red Cardinal Hat)"
我想這位兄弟是混淆了個人和教區紋章的不同規定.
主教/樞機等神長的個人紋章就只可用galero,而不再用mitre及episcopal staff,按1969年的 Ut sive sollicite #28.
奇怪的反而是當今教宗的"破格".
但該文件沒有廢除教區作為法人本身擁有紋章時使用mitre的習慣.
而是否用"gothic" mitre 也只是設計者的喜好而已.三藩市總教區的紋章就不是gothic mitre.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/12/5 上午 10:07:26
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其實也有很簡單的例子.
holy see 的紋章是三重冠加二條鎖匙.
教宗個人的紋章正常是在上加一盾.(當今教宗是例外).
用主保聖人的特徵來作紋章的內容是常有,但不是規定.
因印章使用而推論紋章必然使用是謬誤.
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ernst
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Posted -
2006/12/5 下午 05:45:39
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Dear 靚仔,
Thx for your reply. :P
But there is something i don't understand.
我想這位兄弟是混淆了個人和教區紋章的不同規定.
I do quite well the difference between them. If you take a look of the Seal of the Diocesan Chancery. The seal is being surrounded by~"Curia Episcopalis Schiiamchiamensis" and a "Cartouche" containing the figure of our lady of Immaculate Conception. Surely the "Cartouche" represents the Episcopal Curia of Hong Kong. Though I couldn't therefore prove it to be the Shield of the diocese itself, it's a very popluar and common practice in Europe to have the seal of the Bishopric (not to confussed with "Personal Seal" Of the Ordinary bishop") constituted by the Diocesan Arm/shield. In our case, the Cartouche of our Lady of Immaculate Conception would "LIKELY" be the shield of the Diocese as it constitutes the Curia seal.
I think we need to have it confirmed by the diocese.
用主保聖人的特徵來作紋章的內容是常有,但不是規定.
因印章使用而推論紋章必然使用是謬誤.
Yes ofcourse. That's why I say it's a very Common Practice, not always ture.
主教/樞機等神長的個人紋章就只可用galero,而不再用mitre及episcopal staff,按1969年的 Ut sive sollicite #28.
奇怪的反而是當今教宗的"破格".
Thanks. I'm aware of this document. Please give me sometime to get more references.
但該文件沒有廢除教區作為法人本身擁有紋章時使用mitre的習慣.
That's ture. It's the reason why I said that in English-speaking Country dioceses, Mitre is being using to be part of the insignia. But again it's again common practice nowadays in Continental Europe to use the Galero. (Please note that In Heraldry, the hat is properly called Pontifical Hat instead of Galero. Since the Galero is peculiar to Cardinals, which is very large in size and wide brim, which makes it's difficult to wear.)
http://www.newadvent.org/images/07243apx.jpg
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ernst
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Posted -
2006/12/5 下午 05:47:58
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/12/6 下午 10:48:12
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如是也應叫作"ecclesiastical hat"而不是"Pontifical Hat",因為在Heraldry中,所有神職人員用的帽子都是這個"款式",只是顏色和穗結的數目有所不同.
在Heraldry的用語中"gelato"應不是專指樞機的帽子.
例如 cardinal dress
因為雖然在現實中gelato和cappello romano or Saturno外形明顯不同,但在Heraldry中,樞機和主教的帽子在外形上是沒有分別的.
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ernst
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Posted -
2006/12/7 上午 04:03:44
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如是也應叫作"ecclesiastical hat"而不是"Pontifical Hat",因為在Heraldry中,所有神職人員用的帽子都是這個"款式",只是顏色和穗結的數目有所不同.
In some way, you could say so but all hats worn by clergy are also referred as "Ecclesiastical hat". including biretta, cappello romano(Saturno), galero and pontifical hat.
在Heraldry的用語中"gelato"應不是專指樞機的帽子.
It's a common induglence and practice to make use of the Pontifical Hat in Roman Catholic Heraldry. Please be reminded the fact that in the OLD DAYS, not all people are entitled to the dignity of having a "Coat of Arms". People of noble or at least landowner class origin are titled to bear it. And Heraldry is "develped" over centuries, not as some people believe that it could be "Innovate". In practice, "Pontifical Hat is generally worn by Prelates from the Cardinal to senior Prelates, but ofcourse with different decorations/cords and trims according to their ranks.
因為雖然在現實中gelato和cappello romano or Saturno外形明顯不同,但在Heraldry中,樞機和主教的帽子在外形上是沒有分別的.
There are many Differences between the "Galero and "Saturno". Due to the Simplification of Vatican II, I think most people of our generation have not seen the Real Galero in their life, some even a Saturno. Galero is a kind of Pontifical hat again "peculiar" to Cardinals of the Church. It is made of red silk, very Large and wide in shape while having a small crown. There are 15 tassels suspended from the crown of hat from each side as the Heraldic hat, and its often to have extra cord to stablize the hat under the chin.
"Pontifical hat" is a hat being used to represent the dignity of the Arm Holder in Heraldry. Futhermore, it's a real Hat which was once widely used in the church. Colour is different depending on the Rank of the prelate. Interestingly, one could always find different colours and tassels attached in Heraldry from ordinary priest to Cardinal, in reality only Upper Prelates(Protonotary Apostolic) or above are entitled to wear it.Furthermore, "Pontifical hat" also comes in anther version, which is narrower in the brim and called "Semi-Pontifical Hat". "Semi-Pontifical hat" is very simiar with Saturno in terms of Shape, so people sometime get confused of the 2.
cappello romano(Roman Hat) or Saturno
It's the most "BASIC" hatwear for a Roman Clergy. Any cleric, even a seminarian after tonsure is entitled to wear. It's black and usually made of beaver skin.
Lastly, there are also few "Adaptation" of the aboves in terms of Shape and deocrations for different occassions. And they are quite easily to get mixed up.
Any comments? thx
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FANNY
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Posted -
2006/12/7 下午 11:33:09
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看過靚仔兄與Ernst兄的討論，本人有以下回應，但Ernst兄你必須細讀以下文章，由於經教宗保祿六世改革後，不論樞機、主教、蒙席等級的神職人員的服飾及紋章規格與梵二前有所不同。
神職人員服飾及牧徽改革
主教公署的印章圖案可算是我們教區的區徽或更好稱作稱為印章Seal，但絕對不是牧徽(Coat of Arms)。
澳門教區的區徽與一個主教的牧徽特徵有相同之處的原因可能是採用了以往當地教區主教的牧徽而已，並無特別，以往亦有教區有這樣做法，不足為奇。
在徽號裡不論是用Satuno/Capelle romano或用galero都好，都是一樣式樣，只是顏色不同而已，儘管兩種帽子實際上有著不甚相同外型。
可參看網址：
神職人員牧徽圖片
牧徽不限於主教、總主教及樞機等的專利，即使神父或較高級神職人員都可有牧徽，但不同的是穗結數目的多寡，例於蒙席Monsignor又有不同等.....。
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/12/11 下午 02:28:21
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有時真的是很難講得明白.
galero的實物是這樣的:
galero
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靚仔
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Posted -
2006/12/11 下午 02:38:52
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Ernst:
我不知是否溝通上的問題,又或是課題本身的複雜性及專門性.
我想這課題解說得最清楚和最權威的專書應是:
B.B. Heim, Heraldry in the Catholic Church, 1981.
教廷的指引也頗清楚:
Secretariat of State Directive n.364118, 7 Jan, 1956.
J-C. Noonan, Jr., The Church Visible, 1996也是一本不錯的書,但他在講論ecclesiastical hat和Pontifical Hat時也是前後不一致的.
fanny提供的網址中的這篇文章也是不錯的簡單介紹:
Church Heraldry
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ernst
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Posted -
2009/5/20 上午 07:52:49
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dear 靚仔,
sorry for my such late reply.
Surely I know what a galero is. the Late Msgr. Bruno Heim, I have read his great work before. Thanks for pointing out though. He was such a great prelate.
But there's a mark different between a semi-pontifical hat, pontifical hat and a galero. the later being pretty large in size. The Semi-pontifical hat is the smallest around the size of a Saturno (Round roman hat) with tassels. Galero is only for Cardinal and is never worn but merely held by a page during ceremony. A Pontifical hat is in wearable size with tassels.
In Heraldry, ofcourse only the pontifical hat is used. What i wanted to point out is: both the Galero and Semi-pontifical hat could hardly been seen anymore. Therefore, it's hard to tell their difference.
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