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作者
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Pooh-Pooh
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Posted -
2008/5/16 下午 04:59:07
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是否唱把頌恩,心頌的歌,唱幾首所謂青年作曲家的作品,拍拍手,彈結他,跳跳舞 就是?
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simon
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Posted -
2008/5/16 下午 10:48:35
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禮儀是服務人和天主。如果跳舞、彈結他和拍手可令年青人更投入感恩祭，加入這些元素有何不可？
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morrie
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Posted -
2008/5/17 上午 03:20:01
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「誰若說，彌撤聖祭，祗是讚頌與謝恩，或祗是對十字架上所做祭獻的紀念，而彌撤聖祭本身，並不是贖罪之祭，或它祗為領聖體的人得益，而不應該，也為生者，死者，為赦罪，赦罪罰，為補贖並為其他需求而奉獻彌撤聖祭，那麼，這種人，應受咒詛。」(脫利騰大公會議 1753)
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Pooh-Pooh
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Posted -
2008/5/17 上午 11:41:53
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不如Karaoke 啦! Rafe Party 的燈光音樂!
神父也不要穿祭衣,穿至型至潮的服飾,不要講道,次次Talk show就更給引.
吸引了年青人,我們這班老餅就不如放置一旁Okay啦! 我們過時了!
是為參與聖祭還是參與Party呢?
另,Morris兄,可否說多一點,因為這翻譯不太流暢,小弟才疏學淺,看不明白. 謝謝!
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edward
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2008/5/17 下午 04:44:18
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Paul VI saw liturgical abuse as "smoke of Satan"
Rome, May. 16, 2008 (CWNews.com) - When Pope Paul VI spoke about the "smoke of Satan" entering the Catholic Church, he was referring to liturgical abuses, according to the prelate who served as his master of ceremonies.
Cardinal Virgilio Noe, the chief Vatican liturgist during the pontificate of Paul VI, spoke candidly about the late Pope's concerns in an interview with the Roman Petrus web site. The Italian prelate-- who was also the Vatican's top liturgist under Pope John Paul I and the early years of the pontificate of John Paul II-- is now retired, and at the age of 86 his health is failing. In his interview with Petrus he concentrated primarily on his years serving Pope Paul VI.
Pope Paul accepted the liturgical reforms after Vatican II "with pleasure," Cardinal Noe said. [...] Regarding the late Pope's famous remark about the "smoke of Satan," Cardinal Noe said that he knew what Paul VI intended by that statement. In that denunciation, he said, the Pope "meant to include all those priests or bishops and cardinals who didn't render worship to the Lord by celebrating badly Holy Mass because of an errant interpretation of the implementation of the Second Vatican Council. He spoke of the smoke of Satan because he maintained that those priests who turned Holy Mass into dross in the name of creativity, in reality were possessed of the vainglory and the pride of the Evil One. So, the smoke of Satan was nothing other than the mentality which wanted to distort the traditional and liturgical canons of the Eucharistic ceremony."
For Pope Paul VI, the cardinal continued, the worst outcome of the post-conciliar liturgical reform was the "craving to be in the limelight" that caused many priests to ignore liturgical guidelines. Cardinal Noe recalled that the Pope himself believed in careful adherence to the rubrics of the Mass, firmly believing that "no one is lord of the Mass."
Speaking for himself, the former top Vatican liturgist said that the liturgy must always be celebrated with reverence and careful respect for the rubrics. He said with regret that in the wake of Vatican II "it was believed that everything, or nearly, was permitted." Cardinal Noe said: "Now it is necessary to recover-- and in a hurry-- the sense of the sacred in the ars celebrandi, before the smoke of Satan completely pervades the whole Church."
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simon
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Posted -
2008/5/17 下午 06:45:37
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任何好事，推到極端都可以變成壞事。
做運動對身體有益，一天做二十四小時劇烈運動可能會死。
一如我以前說過，天主從沒有向人表示，風琴比結他神聖。人覺得某種樂器神聖，是主觀感覺；感覺每個人都可以有分別。
一千年前的教友若能坐時光飛船來到今天的Vatican，也可能會認為今天Vatican的彌撒不及格。
若抱著「和傳統不同就一定壞」的觀念，這個世界不會有進步，人們甚至會贊同燒死那些提異見的人，因為以前也是這樣做嘛！
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edward
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Posted -
2008/5/17 下午 06:52:08
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各位手足：
青年彌撒之起因，首先乃在於人們認為，教會為顧及青少年的特殊需要，應就著青少年的靈性成長，提供若干「適應」的措施。這些特殊需要，往往被理解為「表達方式」。因此，各種「讓步」和「妥協」的措施如：一些「現代」的音樂形式、禮節上的「調整」、語言上的「適應」，一概地被接受為對青年們愛德及關懷的表現。
然而小弟認為，這些做法雖然動機良好，但卻往往「好心做壞事」。情況就有如：家長為迎合孩子的享樂口味，如汽水、電視和最新款遊戲機而刻意逢迎，甚至達到令孩子們上癮的程度。當孩子們不是出於責任感、而是因為若干歡娛方面的滿足而行善──我們只可以說這是一種徹頭徹尾地失敗的教育。
坦白地說，我們是把我們的青少年和孩子們「縱壞」和「寵壞」了。
禮儀是整個教會的團體行為。當「青年彌撒」的某類舉行方式，被認為可以一伙兒「私自進行」時，彌撒作為「教會對天主公共禮拜」的莊嚴性就被扭曲了。
所謂「青年」彌撒，其實應該是對青年們有所要求。我們應「挑戰」和「激勵」他們：審視那繼承自父母及身處團體的產業和傳統，並在周邊文化環境中保存作為天主教徒的身分（identity）。藉著堂區日常禮儀職務及服務責任的分擔、紀律的學習、遵守和服從，令他們對禮儀背後的意義達致更深的瞭解，使他們自己的信仰內涵更具深度、人格有所成長並臻於成熟，從而有助於他們融入堂區以至整個（＝古往今來、世界各地）教會團體之中。
我們的堂區實在應為青少年的成長提供環境和機會，訓練和鍛鍊他們更多參予和服務，並鼓勵他們在語言、音樂和領導方面的造詣有所精進；積極地協助並鼓勵他們在信仰上「尋根」和「求問」。
偶以搞一台「青年彌撒」然後告訴自己「我為青年們做了點事」，那只恐怕是自欺欺人和逃避問題的做法吧？
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edward
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Posted -
2008/5/17 下午 07:06:20
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西滿兄：
小弟從不認為風琴必定比結他神聖，然而我們須承認，迄今為止，沒有哪幾首結他曲樂，能登入禮儀的大雅之堂。我不反對用結他演奏「Santa Lucia」或「Parla piu piano」能導人向真善美，但即使「宗教音樂」（religious music）與「禮儀音樂」（liturgical music），兩者之間亦並不存在著等同的關係。
就目前音樂發展而言，結他相較管風琴用於教會的禮儀之中，有其客觀的局限性及低劣性。
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Pooh-Pooh
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Posted -
2008/5/18 上午 01:36:01
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Sorry, 各位弟兄,我絕對沒有偏低"青年彌撒"或傳統禮儀音樂以外的樂曲的意思!
只不過，我想帶出，眼見很多弟兄姊妹在安排這些"青年彌撒"，有些越軌的行為，破壞了彌撒和聖體聖事的莊嚴；
另，又見他們硬要把那些被定性為"新創作,青年的"歌曲，凌駕了教會的禮儀年歷（在四旬期唱亞肋路亞都見過），在彌撒中全數都唱出來，忽略了當日的慶節及讀經等等；有感而發，在這裡說出來，好讓我有我 Ventilate 一下而已！
請大家不要見怪！
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Pooh-Pooh
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Posted -
2008/5/18 上午 01:40:56
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結他也有很多樂曲可登大雅之堂；早幾天跟一位基督教的分兄談天時，才知道，原來有一種結他音樂稱為古典結他，當中有很多也是聖樂作品；聽下去的感覺也是很莊嚴和能幫助祈禱的!
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edward
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Posted -
2008/5/18 上午 08:23:22
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Pooh-Pooh兄：
小弟認為，青年亦是教會的一份子。他們在參與禮儀時，並不構成一種「例外」情況。
你所指的「古典結他聖樂」，有沒有具體的例子？我懷疑那位弟兄所提及的，是否指「harpsichord」。我不否認結他樂曲能幫助祈禱（例如泰澤的默想歌曲），但是否適用於禮儀則是基於另一些考慮。
在此我們亦需要留意：天主教的「彌撒」，與新教弟兄的「讚美敬拜」，屬於兩碼子事。千萬不可混為一談。
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Pooh-Pooh
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Posted -
2008/5/18 下午 11:03:20
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當然啦！
我們大家都舉行聖餐禮；但我們的聖餐禮與他有天淵之別！
雖然大家都是在這聖餐禮中讚美和感謝天主，向祂祈禱；</b>但是，我們的聖餐禮，是主基督的真實臨在；我們不是象徵和紀念，而是耶穌給我們的聖體聖事；所以，我覺得，彌撒中當然要非常莊嚴和尊敬啦!</b>
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simon
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Posted -
2008/5/18 下午 11:52:46
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edward,
我以為自己的說話比較偏激，看來一山還有一山高。
你說：「沒有哪幾首結他曲樂，能登入禮儀的大雅之堂......結他相較管風琴用於教會的禮儀之中，有其客觀的局限性及低劣性。」
甚麼叫大雅之堂？我在大會堂演奏廳欣賞過古典結他獨奏。大會堂演奏廳算不算大雅之堂？
音樂上的大雅還是小雅，恐怕是人的感覺，多於天主的標準。
結他有其「客觀的低劣性」？
客觀上，結他確是比風琴便宜。便宜就低劣？！
你當然不是指售價。那麼你的「客觀的低劣性」是怎樣定義？
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simon
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Posted -
2008/5/18 下午 11:58:48
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現實中，我想甚麼都是講平衡。
我們當然不能無止境地遷就年青人的口味去改變彌撒摸式，但合情理的調節，我相信是有助年青人接近天主。
這個情況，有點像教育工作，必須與時並進。
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edward
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Posted -
2008/5/19 上午 08:40:15
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Dear Simon,
Thanks for your compliments ... I foresee that certain brothers and sisters may feel offended by my words above. But as you know, we really care about problems being properly addressed and resolved. If many of our dear priests and venerable bishops feel embarassed to point out some "inconvenient" truths, let us do them a service.
But please read my reply carefully first. Here we are not using secular places like City Hall or Cultural Centre as the locus of reference.
Even the use of foul language is acceptable for some people in the context of City Hall type of "artistic" performance. But we are talking about LITURGY here.
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edward
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Posted -
2008/5/19 上午 08:44:53
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Dear Pooh-Pooh,
While in the Eucharist there is the Real Presence of Christ, it is also "memorial" and "symbolic" in the fullest senses of the terms.
When we engage ourselves in dialogue with separated brethren, let us take care to avoid extremely exclusive formulations while attempting the emphasize on the salient features of the Catholic doctrine, e.g. "Not ... But ...". Many times the situations are rather
"Not only ... But ..." and
"It is .... but also ..."
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Pooh-Pooh
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Posted -
2008/5/19 上午 09:53:50
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Edward,
I understand your point, I was not make too clear since I think we discuss with those have Catholic believes here. I am extremely careful when having conversations with Protestant brothers & sisters.
Besides, I totally agree with you, we are talking about the materials (i.e. music , language , gesture,etc) in the Liturgy , especially in the Mass. Therefore, it doesn't mean anything appropriate in the Auditorium is suitable in the Church.
But, I think , we need great care when handling these issues in daily parish activities.
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simon
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Posted -
2008/5/19 下午 12:51:58
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關於彌撒中用甚麼音樂，我認為主要看參與者的接受程度。如果大家都能接受結他或琵琶，那是沒半點問題的。
天主並不著重人用甚麼樂器來讚美祂。天主著重的是人心。
誰敢說天主只喜歡風琴而討厭band sound呢？
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edward
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Posted -
2008/5/22 上午 09:49:02
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西滿兄：
話亦可以倒過來說，人的外表往往亦反映內心。所謂：誠於中則形於外。自誠明謂之性，自明誠謂之教。誠則明，明則誠矣。兩者豈不相輔相成麼？
詩經的〈大雅〉篇章，本來就是用以廟堂祭祀之用的。
現今不少團體的禮儀舉措，可謂既不羅馬，亦不中國，真是君子去仁，惡乎成名了。
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simon
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Posted -
2008/5/22 下午 01:27:29
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音樂是文化一部份。文化是隨時間改變的東西。
五百年前在彌撒中用風琴是合適，不等於五千年後也只可用風琴。
好比一千年前女人穿短袖上衣見人是失禮，今天卻是合適。
天主不會介意你是穿短袖還是長袖衣去彌撒，也不會介意你用風琴、結他還是琵琶。天主在意的是人心。彌撒中，路人甲虔敬地用結他彈音樂，路人乙輕率地用風琴彈音樂，天主愛聽哪一個？
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simon
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Posted -
2008/5/22 下午 05:14:11
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以事論事，耶穌在二千年前建立聖體聖事時，不可能有風琴伴奏。
用風琴，該是歐洲文化傳統。若把歐洲文化硬性規定成普世教會的彌撒文化，我認為是管得太多了。請注意，我不是反對用風琴，其實我也喜歡風琴聲。我只是覺得，在神學角度，沒有一種樂器比另一種更神聖，也沒有一種樂器是「客觀地低劣」。當多數人接受風琴，我們就用風琴；多數人愛結他，我們就可以用結他。
當然，若有人說：「教宗叫人在彌撒中用風琴，而不該用電結他、古箏或琵琶，是受聖神感召而發出的命令。」那是天下無敵的王牌，我無話可說了。
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M.D
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Posted -
2008/5/23 上午 12:01:51
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Simon
There has been a great concern on the using of a 'appropriate'music regarding the treasure retained by our mother church,that's the liturgy(the mass). For this, the church has long been giving CLEAR instruction on that, even after the Vatican 2. The statnments are follows:
1)Types of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the Mass and the Sacred Liturgy of the must be either Gregorian Chant, or must be similar to Gregorian Chant. The primary example of music similar to Gregorian Chant is Sacred Polyphony, exemplified by the compositions of Palestrina.
2)Characteristics of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the Mass must have "grandeur yet simplicity; solemnity and majesty,"and must have "dignity," and "gravity," should be "exalted" and "sublime," should bring "splendor and devotion"to the liturgy, and must be conducive to prayer and liturgical participation, rather than distracting the listener from prayer.It must be music that befits the profound nature of the Mass, which is the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.As Pope Paul VI put it: "The primary purpose of sacred music is to evoke God's majesty and to honor it. But at the same time music is meant to be a solemn affirmation of the most genuine nobility of the human person, that of prayer.
3)Types of Musical Instruments Appropriate for the Mass. The instrument that is most "directly" fitted for the Mass is the classical pipe organ. Other instruments, however, can be adapted to the Mass, including wind instruments, and smaller bowed instruments.
4)Types of Music Prohibited in the Mass. All secular and entertainment styles of music are utterly prohibited in the Mass.The introduction of inappropriate music into the liturgy is regarded as "deplorable conduct.
5)Types of Instruments Prohibited in the Mass. All "noisy or frivolous" instruments are prohibited for use in the Mass.The specific instruments named by the Popes have included GUITAR , pianos, drums, cymbals, and tambourines."Bands" also are prohibited, as are all automated forms of music (recordings, automatic instruments, etc).
If u still want to code the pope's words to make u silent, i think this will satisfy u:
"The specific instruments named by the Popes have included GUITAR , pianos, drums, cymbals, and tambourines."
from Pope Benedict XIV, Encyclical Annus Qui, n. 90; Pope Pius X, Motu Proprio Tra le sollecitudini, n. 19. Principle upheld by Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium (1963), nos. 112, 120, and by the Instruction of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, Musicam Sacram (1967), nos. 4, 63.
Lastly, if your statement above stands, should our mother church, which is led by the Holy Spirit, not to be so' outdated'for not fitting all the faithful's demands and make some changes as what you said?
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simon
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Posted -
2008/5/23 上午 12:27:53
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MD，
謝謝你的資料和意見。
音樂對人的效果，是很主觀的。
歷任教宗大多數是歐洲人，他們的文化背景影響了他們的喜好和判斷。
若說只有某類歐洲音樂才適合用於彌撒來讚美天主，恕我未能接受。這個強烈排他性的說法，有點像梵二以前，只准用拉丁文開彌撒一樣。
現在我們可用多國語言舉行彌撒，我感謝在極度保守的年代仍勇於提出「異見」的人，可以想像，當年他們必定被極度保守人士痛罵過無數次。
若以風琴比作拉丁文，古箏就比作中文。我們可在彌撒中用拉丁文感謝天主，也可以用中文感謝天主；我們可以用風琴讚美天主，也可以用古箏（或其他樂器）來讚美天主。
我期待梵三會有所改善。
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simon
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Posted -
2008/5/23 上午 12:45:06
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MD：
你引述："The instrument that is most "directly" fitted for the Mass is the classical pipe organ. Other instruments, however, can be adapted to the Mass, including wind instruments, and smaller bowed instruments."
我的歷史知識不強。倒想問問：假如第一任教宗聖伯多祿舉行感恩祭時用了別的樂器，他就算是犯了大錯？？？！！
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Pooh-Pooh
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Posted -
2008/5/23 上午 09:20:13
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撇開樂器的因素，請問各位Brother對彌撒中的音樂在風格，體材及旋律等有何高見?
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