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全部區域 > 神學 > 禮儀與聖事 > 輔祭佩帶羅馬領

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fanny


Posted -
2009/9/21 上午 04:32:46

早前參加輔祭聯會的彌撒,當中除了不是年輕少女輔祭外,更出奇地有來自拉丁彌撒的輔祭朋友,他們大多數人都佩帶羅馬領,我仲意為香港突然間多左咁多年青聖召,但係原來他們不是!梵二前只有通過剪髮禮Tonsure才可以佩帶,梵二後竟然連輔祭都可以帶。最黎甫既係佢地仲帶埋Shoulder cape!我真係唔明點解輔祭唔著番基本黑色Cassock及短白衣。負責人係咪認為咁就代表“傳統“,一話佢想話比所有香港輔祭聽佢地係與眾不同呢?想突出,輔好彌撒先講啦!後生仔!

Jensen


Posted -
2009/9/23 上午 08:21:06

我知道每個地方都有本地化,會唔會係呢個Case呢?還是一場笑話?我真係唔清楚。有無高人可以指教呀?

andrew


Posted -
2009/10/10 下午 03:02:03

會唔會和輔祭從前是屬於小四品之中有關??
我見外國一些彌撒上輔祭都有帶羅馬領 ,不過唔知是否修生/司鐸

靚仔


Posted -
2009/11/19 下午 11:13:53

我看圖片不見有戴羅馬領,但不知是否因為圖片不清.
如那些輔祭不是修生,當然他們是"無權"戴羅馬領,修生可以戴也只是因"習慣法",而不是因為他們"有權",更何況不是修生.
Cape就一定不是輔祭的裝束,香港的教會法規真的越來越鬆弛,根本就沒有多少人理會.

Pooh-Pooh


Posted -
2009/12/4 下午 02:47:43

睇開一點吧!

應該聽命的,都也是如此;更何況不需聽命的呢 ?

hkgck


Posted -
2009/12/23 上午 01:18:26


Altar servers having collars which are in the same style as that of the Redemptorists.
A blue shoulder cape.
Lace on servers' surplice.
Liturgists here please send an complaint letter to the Institute of Christ the King.


Monsignore dressed in the style of a bishop.
Liturgist here please send the Monsignore a complaint letter.

Liturgist here. I'm not satisfied with those Altar Servers who are wearing collars. Please find me a norm from the Canon Law, and I shall report them to the Ordinary.

Moreover, I believe there is something much more serious than the BOY altar servers. Please also deal with those Altar Girls.

ernst


Posted -
2009/12/23 下午 05:11:02

Fanny,

You are mistaken.

(1) The so-called Roman Collar is actually an invention by the Church of England cleric back in the 19th cent. commonly called "Dog collar" in the uk. And it has NOTHING so far to do with the VII.

(2) Before the Council of VII, the roman collar was even "UNKNOWN" in many places of the Christendom. It only made popular after the VII, with the dumping of STANDARD clerical dress as required by canon law~the Roman cassock. Since clergymen started to take secualr civil dress, meaning black suits and pants~therefore they become to wear the Dog collar.

(3) By the degree of Urban VIII in 1624, only the cassock with the sash are the standard dress for "secular cleric". The Roman collar has never been regular part of the clerical dress.

(4) As mentioned above, the roman collar is a 19th cent anglican "invention". but HOW? and WHY?
back to the 19th cent.backward, gentlemen were accustomed to wear high-collar tunic, as painting of Louis XVI. Even father of modern china, Dr Sun's invention of 中山 style tunic, has a high white collar as the roman collar.

(5) The reason to wear an extra collar is to protect the tunic (cassock). It's all due to a practical reason. It's exactly like the confusion of English choir boys wearing Ruffed collar, it's not for breauty but merely as a protection.

(6) Most religious orders don't even make used of collar at all, Dominican, Fransician etc. Those make use of it like Oratorian and some German Benedictine, their collars has no difference from secular collar. Even most french cleric made used of a wing-collar like barrister do well before the VII. Even nowadays, when in full religious habit, only the Secular Clergymen(Those use cassock as their habit) are required to wear a Roman collar.

Lastly, your attitude show little charity towards these good young people serving the extra-ordinary form of the roman rite. I suggest you to make good use of this christmas and make good penance.

ernst


Posted -
2009/12/23 下午 05:21:06

靚仔,

It's a long standing history in the latin rite accross the Christendom to VEST servers in different costumes (though may be bit fancy in the eyes of Modern people).

You have made a big mistake by saying "Cape就一定不是輔祭的裝束". It's as common as Germen beer in Catholic Germany to have servers vested with a shoulder capes. Your ignorance doesn't prove others mistake. Have you been to Austria, Switzerland and Bavaria? If not, you really should spend sometime and pay a visit there.

ernst


Posted -
2009/12/23 下午 05:40:37

hkgck,

I ask you to make public penance here for your injustice against the good Msgr Schmitz who was ordained to priesthood by our Sovereign Pope Benedict XVI. Let me remember you Msgr Schmitz holds a STD, not even one single memember of the HK liturgical Commission do!

As a Prelate of Honour he's entitled to wear a silk purple ferraiolone (cloak). You may have your own personal taste and preference, but he has done nothing wear to wear something he's entitled to. Since there's no more living Msgr in HK, doesn't mean they don't EXSIT. Please do your home work before making an arguement here.

And YES, their servers is wearing soft lace poet collar, so what? it's common for clergymen to wear it during the 17th cent. and including lay servers!!! As explained above there's nothing wrong for servers to wear shoulder-cape. for Lace surplices, yes ... servers in Rome wear it as always too. Would you consider to write a letter personally to the Pope? Don't let your ignorance blinds your own eyes ... if you don't know, go and study it.

andrew


Posted -
2009/12/25 下午 05:11:11

ernst

想請教一點, 以我從前所知聖公會教士所發明的collar是現在我們所見的放在衣領的"白色片" 但在此以前已有一個"完整圓形白色領"和cassock一起

這兩個都被稱為羅馬領

未知我這樣說是否正確??

ernst


Posted -
2009/12/26 下午 12:58:03

Deleted

ernst


Posted -
2009/12/26 下午 02:14:00

恰恰相反,"白色片"羅馬領是後來20世紀60年代為方便不穿羅馬衣背心的理由起見而發明,你拿走"白色片"後看起來和世俗的襯衫一模一樣。

"完整圓形白色領"是最原始和最正規的領片。還要配上羅馬衣背心。

Let us take alook of the BEST example from Cardinal Foley in his "Civil/Private habit".

http://www.newmancause.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/cardinal-foley-in-oratory-library-standing-at-desk-21.jpg

andrew


Posted -
2009/12/27 下午 04:52:39

ernst
那麼依你所見 輔祭們帶羅馬領是否合適? 理據是什麼?(小弟不才 只想知多一點, 因為這個困擾小弟一段時間了)

另外 請問 Vatican II 以前是否只有 修院修生 司鐸 和主教 可以帶羅馬領??

ernst


Posted -
2009/12/28 下午 11:56:22

Dear Andrew,

As i have explained above, the proper dress for "secular cleric" is Cassock+sash but not the Roman collar. Why? if you make it in the MUST-HAVE list, then what about stocking, under-garment, hatwear and shoes? Only the cassock+sash are the KEY.

Besides, the Roman Collar is only required when cleric in "civil dress"(Modern version is Black shirt+Suits). Therefore for the sake of functionality (protect the collar of the cassock) and uniformity (the reason of using Amice to conseal the undergarment as required by GIRM), we can't find a proper reason not allowing altarboys to wear the so-called "roman collar"! Given the fact that even Choirboys at St Peter Basilica have been doing the same and bear in mind the Papal Liturgy is the example for the univeral church.

Furthermore, the Roman collar is not worn by many religious orders. Even those wear cassock as their habits, would wear different kind of collar for example: the Oratorian, redemptorist, the La Salle brothers.

Back to your question. Answer is NO, quite alot of them didn't even make use of it back then.

FANNY


Posted -
2009/12/31 上午 02:53:55

Dear Ernst,

I think you are mistaken.

(1) The so-called Roman Collar is actually an invention by the Church of England cleric back in the 19th cent. commonly called "Dog collar" in the uk. And it has NOTHING so far to do with the VII.

<>I Reply:<> Roman collar can trace its distant origins back to the 15th century when clerics began following the fashion of placing their linen collars over their outer clothing. This became accepted custom, and by the 17th century there were many forms of this linen collar, such as the ornate Roman variety, the 'collarino', of ornate and expensive lace, and the French adopted the collars worn by the noble classes, of linen, fine lace and needlework, which made them more beautiful but also more difficult to clean. So another custom arose: covering the collar with a changeable sleeve of white linen to protect it from dirt. The modest-minded Pope Urban VIII banned the use of lace in 1624, but he didn't ban the protective sleeve. Thus the narrow band of white linen used to protect the collar in the course of a few centuries became what is known today as the Roman collar. Another reason was as black was increasingly worn by clergy, the collar served as a one of the obvious elements in their attire. So a linen band (the collar which could be seen in the photos of St. John Vianney) was slowly used to offer protection against dirt and stains. (you are right at this point!) And this was the direct origin of the current collar.

(2) Before the Council of VII, the roman collar was even 'UNKNOWN' in many places of the Christendom. It only made popular after the VII, with the dumping of STANDARD clerical dress as required by canon law~the Roman cassock. Since clergymen started to take secualr civil dress, meaning black suits and pants~therefore they become to wear the Dog collar.

<>I Reply:<> I have never seen a priest without a collar in cassock. If you say, before the Council of Trent, the roman collar was UNKNOWN in many places, that might be a true proposition. Even France, many priests adopted the Roman collar before Vatican II. Maybe you were talking about the priests in China!! since they had a special Chinese 'chong sam' as their cassock, but how about the French, Italian or American missionaries? They should have known the roman collar as one of their normal attire. Yes, you maybe correct that after Vatican II, the roman collar became the ONLY clergy dress, but it does not mean that before the Council, Roman collar was UNKNWON by many countries.

(3) By the degree of Urban VIII in 1624, only the cassock with the sash are the standard dress for "secular cleric". The Roman collar has never been regular part of the clerical dress.

<>I Reply:<> As I have mentioned before, Urban VIII did not say that the collar was not the standard dress for secular clergy. He banned the use of lace on their collar.

(4) As mentioned above, the roman collar is a 19th cent anglican "invention". but HOW? and WHY? back to the 19th cent. backward, gentlemen were accustomed to wear high-collar tunic, as painting of Louis XVI. Even father of modern china, Dr Sun's invention of ?R style tunic, has a high white collar as the roman collar.

<>I Reply:<> The COE invented the tab-collar, unlike the Sun Yat San style. The roman collar is a CATHOLIC invention, that's why we call it ROMAN and Anglican collar. But the plastic/linen round collar (the current and most common style) in fact was invented by the COE.

(5) The reason to wear an extra collar is to protect the tunic (cassock). It's all due to a practical reason. It's exactly like the confusion of English choir boys wearing Ruffed collar, it's not for breauty but merely as a protection.

<>I Reply:<> I agree with you.

(6) Most religious orders don't even make used of collar at all, Dominican, Fransician etc. Those make use of it like Oratorian and some German Benedictine, their collars has no difference from secular collar. Even most french cleric made used of a wing-collar like barrister do well before the VII. Even nowadays, when in full religious habit, only the Secular Clergymen(Those use cassock as their habit) are required to wear a Roman collar.

<>I Reply:<> Of course! They are religious orders, they have their own habits. Their habits are approved by the Pope, or given by their founders. Therefore, they would not have to follow the FASHION. The wing collar is very similar to the 'rabbat' - The original ROMAN collar.

Lastly, my attitude did not show disrespectful to anyone who serves the extraordinary form of the roman rite. Personally speaking, I am a extraordinary rite goer. The only thing I disagree is some people try to make the altar servers more 'pomp' in order to show they are more traditional. It's wrong!! Hong Kong has never had this kind of traditions! Before Vatican II, only seminarians who are in their theological years could entitle to wear a shoulder cape!! This rule was same as our neighbor - Macau. Wearing a shoulder cape and roman collar was not a NORMS. If you think that the French customs or the Spanish customs are nice, you want to bring them to Hong Kong, you should first consider the local custom in the past. Don't try to imitate others.

FANNY


Posted -
2009/12/31 上午 03:07:44

Dear hkgck,
Do you mean that the people who try to copy other religious orders or CANON regular is acceptable? No wonder there are so many altar boys wearing albs instead of Roman Cassock.

Do you know the Latin Mass community in HK is different in nature from the Institute Christ of the King? They have a blue cassock and shoulder cape, does the Latin Mass in HK has to invent their own color? Their habits were approved by the Holy See and the local bishop.

Msgr Schmitz is a real Msgr, of course he is entitled to wear something similar to the bishop. Please notice that his biretta must always be black with purple pompon only.

We are Catholic, you have to know not all the laws are written in the Canon law, because we have customs. Wearing shoulder cape and Roman collar is not the NORM in HK, and never was.

I think you should follow Ernst's instructions to study more. Please do your homework / job before making an argument here.


hkgck


Posted -
2010/1/2 下午 07:37:03

I am not only suggesting "copying habit of religious order" is acceptable. I suggest that it should be encouraged!

Altar Boys, a.k.a Altar servers, are indeed an invention for obtaining more vocations for the church. The use of cassock and surplice is really a simulation of being a priest for the altar boys. As soon as they dress like a priest, they will soon be inspired by these holy habit and they will start thinking about of becoming a priest of a brother.

There is no use of claiming yourself as a "extraordinary rite goer" here. It is more appreciative for you to support the usus antiqor by attending the traditional mass, praying for the traditional orders and donating to these orders.

Discussing the "problems" that you have observed here is indeed useless. As none of these comments will be delivered to the holy see or the ordinary of the church. There are still much more valuable works that you can do in your live instead of blowing water here.

There are still much more things that needed to be dealt in Hong Kong. Altar girls are one of the worst problems in Hong Kong. As I have mentioned before, the duty of being an altar server is reserved for boys only as this is one of the method of inspiring young man of considering the vocation. The church doesn't need any Priestess.

FYI, i have found the website of the latin mass in hong kong via google. You should send them your complaint directly : http://tridentine.catholic.org.hk/

ernst


Posted -
2010/1/3 上午 12:59:45

Dear Fanny,

After reading your reply, I have found you gravely mistaken on the historial origin and evolution of the so-called “Roman Collar” and its canonical status.

First, you have used the terms “roman collar”, “collarino”, “dog collar” and “rabat” to discrible the collar “in question”. But unfortunately, they have different meanings.

Dog collar: This term comes from the UK (English-speaking counties), refering to the white cotton/pastical alone. Since the innovation by CofE cleric on collar is merely the collar itself, it looks as if a collar of a dog. It’s still a popular among anglican cleric to wear a round white collar alone and not the proper “Roman Collar”.

Rabat: it’s the proper name to discsible a Roman Collar according to Roman tradition. Sometimes, it’s also called Collarino or Collare. According to the “Costume of prelates of the Catholic church, according to Roman etiquette” by John Nainfa:

《Our Roman Collar, so-called, consists of two parts, a starched circle of white linen the collar, and a piece of cloth or silk, to which the collar itself is fastened by means of buttons or hooks, a sort of stock which has been given the somewhat strange name of " rabbi " probably a corruption of the French word " rabat ".》He continues, 《Now, it may be a surprise to many, but it is none the less true, that what is familiar to us under the name of " rabbi " is the true Roman collar, called in Rome collaro.》

Therefore, the Proper name of the Roman Collar is Rabat as John Nainfa explained. And it should come with two parts: the White collar (dog collar by the Anglican) and the Rabat. And what a Rabat looks like? Please take alook of this photo: http://www.euroclero.it/ecom/store/catalog.ach/6D1BE06EB9CE94C/NULL/538//1

The conclusion is “Roman Collar” refers to the Black Rabat/Stock with its non-detachable Black Collar. The White cotton collar is merely for protection of the collar of the Rabat. As what I have said in my previous posts, this Roman collaro became popular only with the spread of wearing civil dress by clergymen, John Nainfa aslo agreed on it: 《as a part of the civilian dress of ecclesiastics》.

But French Wing collar is again story, the historial evidence tells us, it had co-exsits with the Roman collar for quite a well until its compelete abandanment around the time of VII. And in NO-WAY the orgin of Roman collar, but one of the origins. If you are smart enough to do your homework, since the council of Trent, the “Oratorian-style” collar was already worn among the Roman cleric.

The “Tap collar” is not only the invention of Anglican but co-invention with the Roman clergymen, for sake of laziness back in the 70s.

And according to the decrees on the subject of the First Synod of Westminster and the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore, What really MATTERS is the colour of the Rabat/Stock, since it’s What the “ROMAN COLLAR” really meant.

If you still want to argue, what would you explain the use of White Wing Collar among the memebers of Archfaternities accorss the Christendom and the choirboys and the White Round (dog) collar by layservers at St Peter’s Basilica?

Let me remind you, the First Chinese Episcopal Conference in 1924 mandates the Chinese church to get rid of the shadow of missionary church in all apects and it includes the liturgy and cleric costumes too!!! Therefore, if we don’t imitate Rome, where should we imitate? Africa, Russia or perhaps from Greece?

As far as I know, the Dominican house in HK, server’s vestment is an imitation of the Dominican habit too. It’s long been a Catholic custom to vest servers as a mini-cleric. If you have a problem with it, you really surprise me as a self-claimed “extra-ordinary rite goer”. Since you may find yourself more comfortable with the “relax” and “informal” Praise & Worship at Charasmactic or “call to worship” center.

FANNY


Posted -
2010/1/4 上午 05:32:04

I cannot see wearing an alb serving mass would inspire more people to join the Benedictines. I cannot find a point for those who wear an alb instead of a roman surplice would have more interest to become a monk or to think about their religious vocations.

If altar servers just simply want to become a priest by wearing a roman collar or wearing any clerical dress when they are serving mass, I do not think that is "encourageable"?

Yes, altar girls are problematic, but is it mean that altar boys is encouraged to wear a clerical collar serving mass?

Don't think the bishop or the CDW do not know, or they haven't given any instruction, which means you are correct.

Also, here is a public forum which means everybody can express or share about what they think. If you are disagreed, you can either keep your mouth shut or you can give an explanation to prove you are correct. Everyone has a right to "blow water" here.

hkgck


Posted -
2010/1/9 下午 10:13:06

Fanny,

Do you read English?
Perhaps you needa find a dictionary for you to discriminate alb from habbit. The alb is not a part of habbit of benedictines. Some of the benedictine lay brothers have never worn the alb as they are not ordained to any orders.
Please be reminded that alb means WHITE. Only the Cistercians, nobertines and dominicans (&tc) have white habit, the benedictines' habit is in BLACK!
haha

There is no need for you to find any "point for those who wear an alb instead of a roman surplice would have more interest to become a monk or to think about their religious vocations". This is the task of the little boys. Although you don't find any so-called "points", the church does. You and I are both laymen, there is no need for us to judge the action of the maternal church.

Archbishop Raymond Burke, when he was young, he used to own a whole set of liturgical vestment and all the things which are needed for a mass. He celebrated "mass" even when he was at a very young age before he had been ordained. Why? The answer is simple. This is the way of inspiring vocation.

Picture speaks louder than words. Take a look of the following picture.


Please read the reply from Ernst.
He has already cited that according to the teaching of the maternal church, ROMAN COLLAR is not reserved to the clerics. It is available for Seminarians and servers. When can't you just read the things quoted by Ernst which are from the Maternal Church? Are those poor Hong Kong Latin Mass Altar servers correct in this aspect? Why do you have to say they are wrong? Do you have any wicked intention?

I agree with you. Everyone has the right to blow water here. But everyone also has to right to ensure that the water which they blow is authentic! Remember, you and I both have to account for what we have written here in front of god after the hour of death.

God Bless.

Fanny


Posted -
2010/2/2 上午 01:28:00

簡直九唔搭八,究竟你知唔知我講緊乜?呢個論壇,經常有人講到九唔搭八。我當然知道你提及的修會的會衣係白色。我細個的時候,仲有不少會士著住會衣在街上走。但係本篤會彌撒,輔祭們一般都會著長白衣Alb,近年來更有不少堂區甚至抄襲本篤會,將男“女“輔祭都著上長白衣,不過,我不見得多左聖召。

你講神父/會士的會衣或Cassock的確會inspire多的聖召,依個係事實。試問有誰會專重一個神父著到成個豬肉佬呀?我細個想做修女都係因為修女件袍同埋頭紗,當然我最後不成功。但就算你鍾意神父件Cassock 或者個Roman Collar,甚至biretta,你都唔會在公眾著住佢。輔祭的一般服飾係黑色長袍Cassock同短白衣Surplice。

至於有人話教會法典並無規定,那麼便鍾意點就點...就更莫明奇妙,唔好忘記,呢個世界上仲有一樣叫做地方習慣,同埋主教批准。你問教會法典邊條講唔可以,請問你在那裡可以找到有關主教的批准及香港地方傳統有lay people輔祭帶Roman collar輔彌撒呀?

最後,本人靈魂得救的問題,不用閣下為我擔憂,你最好都係先顧慮你自己的靈魂呀!

Fanny


Posted -
2010/2/2 上午 01:39:41

Some of the benedictine lay brothers have never worn the alb as they are not ordained to any orders.
Answer: Wearing an alb to serve mass only required by several religious orders, the Benedictines is one of them. Even a layman who serves mass at a benedictine monastery should wear an alb.

Please be reminded that the benedictines' habit is in BLACK!
Answer: You are 80% correct. Although the color of the habit is not specified in the Rule but it is conjectured that the earliest Benedictines wore white or grey, as being the natural color of undyed wool. For many centuries, however, black has been the prevailing color, that is the reason the term "Black Monk" has come to signify a Benedictine. Some independent or reform congregations have adopted a distinctive color; e.g., the Camaldolese, Cistercians, and Olivetans wear white. The Sylvestrine's habit used to be blue. Members of the St. Ottilien Congregation used to wear a red sash to signify their special missionary character.

simon


Posted -
2010/2/3 下午 02:49:03

Fanny,

不必動氣,免傷身體。
講開又講,是「莫名其妙」,不是「莫明其妙」。
祝平安。

simon

靚仔


Posted -
2010/3/20 上午 09:32:53

deleted.

Paulus


Posted -
2010/3/20 下午 04:37:22

I do believe "blowing water" is fine. Please be calm.

I think the forum shall invite an "authority" to answer this type of "authority" and "serious" questions or queries.

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