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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/24 下午 02:04:58
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The Pope, the Mass
and the Society of St. Pius X
Father Pierre Blet, SJ, Professor of Church History at the Gregorian University, celebrated for his defence of Pope Pius XII against the charge of anti-semitism, has given an interview in which he made some interesting comments apropos relations between Rome and the Society of Saint Pius X and the attitude of Rome to the Traditional Mass. This interview was published in the July-August 2002 issue of the journal of Una Voce France. Father Blet considers that there are at present indications that an entente may be reached. Father Blet noted that members of the Society had been very warmly received during the Holy Year, but that things have slowed down a little since then due principally to the question of accepting Vatican II. He added that "this was not an impediment given that the COUNCIL HAD NOT PROMULGATED ANY BINDING DOGMATIC DEFINITION. EVERYONE THERFORE HAS THE RIGHT TO EXAMINE WHAT HE FEELS ABLE TO ACCEPT..."
Where the problem of the Mass is concerned, certain cardinals of the Curia, and not the least among them, would be willing to accept the Mass of St. Pius V. Some of them have celebrated it publicly. Father Blet then made public some information that has remain confidential until now: "The Pope himself celebrated this Mass during his recent vacation." He also reported the suggestion of a cardinal who remarked that in a town IN THE MIDDLE-EAST where he had been a missionary THE MASS IS CELEBRATED IN A DOZEN DIFFERENT RITES. "Under these circumstances, he asked, WHY COULD THERE NOT BE TWO RITES IN THE WEST?" Father Blet added: "The Curia is ready to make concessions in this matter."
(www.unavoce.org)
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/25 上午 09:51:31
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He added that "this was not an impediment given that the COUNCIL HAD NOT PROMULGATED ANY BINDING DOGMATIC DEFINITION. EVERYONE THERFORE HAS THE RIGHT TO EXAMINE WHAT HE FEELS ABLE TO ACCEPT..."
這句很有趣,近年來神學間的看法好像不是這麼看.但無論如何,今次禮儀的革新根本就沒有牽涉到"教義論斷"的問題.
這欄的題目本身就很有趣,何謂"multi-ritual"?不同時代的同一"rite"的教會的禮儀可否稱為"multi-ritual"?
我想問題更大的是"紀律"問題,我"某某"認為"真正"的禮儀是脫利騰彌撒,其他是"假"的.但"某某"又話我都是喜歡新約所描述的那款,又或都是"宗徒承傳"那款好些,各自"跟隨"自己的喜愛,那樣的百花整放,是我們想見的景況嗎?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/25 上午 10:11:16
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脫利騰會議批准一些超過兩百年歷史的禮儀繼續,但只限在他們故有的範圍內,這是一種'特恩"而非常規,同樣理解下,教宗也願意在一些特殊的情況下,給一些特定的人"特恩"准許他們舉行脫利騰彌撒.只要這不會危害到教會的團結和合一.
教宗是羅馬禮的宗主教,他有權和有責任監管羅馬禮的施行.
那些不聽指示的人其實是在僭越羅馬宗主教的職權.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/26 下午 05:56:30
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Yes there needs to be a refinement of terms:
The 1570 prescription along with that in 1969 are recognised both as "Roman" Rite, but 2 forms of Roman Rite, so "multi-ritual" as I suggested should be "2 forms of the Roman Rite permitted simultaneously".
However the criterion for judging whether 2 forms are the same Rite is not standard. Eg. What makes
the so called "Gallican" Rite different from the Roman Rite so it should be called "Gallican"? This is not settled
"禮儀的革新根本就沒有牽涉到"教義論斷"的問題."
"1969 禮儀的革新" is stimulated by the Liturgical Declaration at V2(1965), that declaration contains no "教義論斷". So of course yes.
In the article:"free able to accept"...accept what?
I think Blet refers to that freedom for us to accept the ideas in the Non-dogmatic Declarations themselves, rather than the 1969 Missal because the Missal is a disciplinary matter. We may disagree with some of the declarations but we must accept the 1969 Missal by discipline.
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"其他是"假"的"---but if someone does not reject other forms as "false"? I think except the SSPX..etc most lovers of the pre-V2 liturgy won't reject other forms as "假"的.....(1):they DON'T reject others
"那樣的百花整放,是我們想見的景況嗎?" What about only 2 flowers? And Pope JP2 asks "respect be given to those who are attached to the Tridentine Mass", those Tridentine-fans are NOT 那些不聽指示的人.....(2):They obey.
They ONLY HOPE THEIR WISH BE RESPECTED. And they did not think "其他是"假"的. of course if the Indult is not given them, they will accept peacefully......(3):They won't go to strike if not granted the Indult.
In fact, most Tridentine fans who are NOT schimatics---many in the US and Europe but few in Asia.
"那些不聽指示的人", do you mean the SSPX, or someone else?
"給一些特定的人"特恩"准許他們舉行脫利騰彌撒.只要這不會危害到教會的團結和合一"...of course. What 's the problem here? Father Blet would agree too.
Father Blet is just suggesting that, GIVEN:
(1)+(2)+(3)--->Why should not the Tridentine Mass be more tolerantly accepted and not pre-judged against?
NB: The SSPX and other schimatics are out of the question here so in my context, those violating (1), (2) or (3) are excluded.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/27 上午 10:24:35
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是的,我的評語是指SSPX那類人的.
我不反對那些因"熱心"或"歷史(指生於那年代而對該禮儀有特殊感情)的緣故的人在教會准許的情況下舉行脫利騰彌撒.
但我想要求讓"脫利騰"和"保祿六世"禮儀平行舉行是有其問題的.人們會懷疑禮儀改革是否行錯了方向?為何只是"脫利騰",我要推行"VERONENSE"禮,又得唔得?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/27 上午 10:34:01
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"THE MASS IS CELEBRATED IN A DOZEN DIFFERENT RITES", BECAUSE THEY ARE "REAL DIFFERENT" RITES, AND NOT A RITE IN DIFFERENT FORMS. ACTUALLY, IN LATIN RITE, WE STILL HAVE AT LEAST TWO OTHER RITES IN USE BESIDE ROMAN.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/27 下午 01:05:11
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"Tridentine and 1969 use in Parallel"---this is actually up to interpretation...a big problem lies with the word "parallel".
"Ecclesia Dei" gives the local ordinary power to decide, does this necessarily means a full "parallel"? But if the local diocese does not agree, is this "parallelity" ignored? Or, is the Ukranian Rite now "in parallel" with the 1969 Roman? If so, why in HK we have no Ukranian mass?
I think what Father Blet says is given the need and facility to have the old Mass, as well as other Latin Rites. It should be allowed and proceeded SMOOTHLY. And the local ordinary needs to take care of their needs.
SO in my context, "parallel" DOES NOT mean you have a 1570 Mass in every parish Church. But you need that in certain parish if more than a dozen people there needs it, and you have the manpower for that. This is what the Pope calls:"respect these people's feelings".
Sure, if someday in HK, a dozen Ukranian guys really needs the Ukranian Rite, AND we have the Ukranian priests here, why not?
And "人們會懷疑禮儀改革是否行錯了方向?"---that is just their misunderstanding. This is indeed a good reason to not allowing the 1570 Mass everywhere but is this a correct reason to banish the 1570 mass altogether or creating difficulties for those organizing it?
The problem is, this intolerance is VERY COMMON in the USA and the 1570-fans in HK are also worried.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/27 下午 04:55:16
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"Ecclesia Dei" gives the local ordinary power to decide, does this necessarily means a full "parallel"?
Not at all.
But if the local diocese does not agree, is this "parallelity" ignored?
Indeed, yes.
"why in HK we have no Ukranian mass?"
Because we don't have Ukranian priest and faithful.
Ukranian rite is a valid and "living" rite, that is different to "Pius V" mass, it should be passed away.
If a Ukranian priest, who is not a bi-ritual priest, pass by HK, and he would like to say mass in HK, he should say the Ukranian mass not latin rite mass, eventhough here in HK is a latin diocese.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 02:49:40
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I know HK has no Ukranian faithful or priests.
But IF there are 20 of them. Should they be permitted?
I agree to your:"Ecclesia Dei" gives the local ordinary power to decide, does this necessarily means a full "parallel"?
Not at all.
But if the local diocese does not agree, is this "parallelity" ignored?
Indeed, yes."
"If a Ukranian priest, who is not a bi-ritual priest, pass by HK, and he would like to say mass in HK, he should say the Ukranian mass not latin rite mass, eventhough here in HK is a latin diocese"...Yes indeed, here the "parallelity" of the Ukranian Rite is fulfilled. But that "parallelity" is NOT what the 1570 fans are asking for, and certainly not my notion of "parallel".
Sorry, but is your notion of "parallel" FOR THE 1570 mass the same as mine---"a tolerant attitude to allow that 1570 celebration without hindrance FOR THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE, though not in every parish"?
We should clear terms before further discussion.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 03:06:26
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I thought your "parallel" means:
"you have the permission to say the special Mass wherever and whenever you are, or you hear this mass wherever and whenever you are"?
Then under this context, Ukranian priests and faithfuls are surely having their mass "in Parallel" with the 1969 mass.
Correct me if I guess wrongly.
But I don't think the 1570-fans in HK, nor Father Blet himself, are asking for this privileged "Parallelity".
My notion of "parallelity" are not so strong. we are just asking for "true inner respect" and "tolerance".
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 03:14:00
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And what do you mean by "living"?
But the 1570 mass is celebrated continuously after V2 by special people(like Padre Pio and some French Benedictines) who are not schimatics nor SSPX.
They have their own indults earlier than Ecclesia Dei. I donno that suffices to be living.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 03:19:45
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噢,可能我們真的有些誤會了.是的,我所想的平行是如你所描述的.
脫利騰禮不是"living",因為他作為羅馬禮的一個階段已經過去了.
有些人因著一些"特恩"而仍然繼續舉行,這只是一個過渡,它不會亦不應成為"常規".
我想到一個例子,不知是否適合.
從前我們可以合法地使用中式的方式舉行婚禮(三書六禮),但現在這種方式不再被承認,但如有一對新人堅決要求舉行,而特首又特准的話,我想是可以的.但如要要求再次恢復使用,和現時的婚禮並行,我想是無甚麼可能的.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 03:40:11
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為何我們不推廣一下用拉丁文舉行保祿六世禮儀?這不需任何特別的准許,而且如全台彌撒以額我略調唱出,效果也真的不俗,你去過未呀?
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 04:43:06
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Yes I have been to a mass like this when I was in California in a Norbertine Abbey. They sing the mass in Gregorian Chant. Indeed Marvelous.
But I donno if Latin is too hard for ordinary catholics. It seems impractical to have REGULAR Latin 1969 Mass in every ordinary parishes. But like the Norbertines, the religious orders, should seriously consider this option of a Latin 1969 Mass.
Of course I will raise my feet to show agreement if any such Mass is said at a large Church, eg St. Teresa's Church or at the Cathedral.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/28 下午 04:59:57
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嘩,乜你咁大貪呀,當然無可能所有堂區,我們也沒有這麼多神父曉得拉丁啦,更何況唱.
我就有個印度同學屬於Norbertine order
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 05:05:36
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No I didn't ask the mass in ALL parish, but one or two large Church is enough.....Consider the acoustics for the Chanting...etc.
By the way, could you suggest a Chinese translation for the word "canon" or "canon regular"....like the Norbertines to me? It's so hard to say in Chinese as I don't know the translation.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 06:12:04
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座堂的canon按中文版的教會法典應是詠禱司鐸,澳門教區應是唯一有canon的中國人教區,他們也是用此名plus 紅衣會,因為canon的服飾為紅色.
canon regular, 我就未見過中文譯法.
聖公會就用法政牧師來稱呼canon.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/29 下午 08:11:43
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Are there any more Canons today in Macau? I wish to see see them. I donno if they follow the Rule Of St.Augustine, haha, it's him again.
But indeed, I am devoted to all Canons Regular. But I am not sure they are Canons Regular or Cathedral Canons. Do they still sing the Office in choir?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 10:59:06
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我想你誤會了, 座堂的canon 和augustinian是兩種不同的人來的.更何況你說的norbertines 是跟 Rule of St. Norbert 而不是 Rule of St. Augustine
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 11:47:05
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Sorry I was refering to the Augustinian CANONS(with many congregations like the Norbertines, Laterans, Austrian, of St. Bernard...) not the Augustine ORDER(FRIARS) OSA/Reformed OSA.
But I heard the Norbertines also follow the Rule of St. Augustine, together with a letter by St. Norbert and their constitution.
Like the Cisterciens who follow St.Benedict's Rule with the Analecta by St. Stephen Harding...etc.
I was told by the Norbertines the Rule of St. Augustine is meant for all canonical clerics, i.e. priests who live together and made vows of poverty (not just obedience and chastity). These clerics-originally diocesan clerics, are called Canons Regular because they follow a Rule("Regulari") and Community Life.
I also heard that the Reformed clergy flourished in the 12 century with the clerical reforms led by people like St. Peter Damian and Hildebrand.
At that time, the problem of clerical vice is serious so some clerics renounce their property and live together as canons regular.
Please correct me if needed. I only heard about them and I COULD NOT FIND A BOOK ON CANONICAL LIFE! I really love to read more about the Canons.
I also know Thomas a Kempis, and Erasmus are canons of the Congregation (Brothers of the Common Life) in Netherlands.
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Augustine
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Posted -
2003/1/30 上午 11:57:34
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I HAVE A GOOD WEBSITE TO recommend:
www.augustiniancanons.org
See SEe!
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