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作者
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內容
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/3/7 下午 06:10:37
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Cecil has told me that she will NOT respond to threads on the reading group at the Parish from today onwards.
Well, I am a member of the Parish, too. But like you, I will not disclose my identity for now.
You can always go and speak to her on your bright ideas, which may help the Parish.
If you are a grown up mature person, you will heed my advice.
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/3/7 下午 06:17:48
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Oh yea, Cecil says that I am her 'speaker' here - she tells you that if you sincerely want to contribute to the reading group, go back to join the group discussion with the Council Representative tomorrow evening. Your bright ideas will be discussed by choir leaders, eucharistic ministers, and last but not the least, the PP.
They will meet together. Otherwise she is not the maker of the Council's decisions and could not entertain your questions and suggestions here, since what's being asnwered will not necessarily be adopted by the Group.
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/3/7 下午 06:19:16
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Sorry - I missed out the date of the meeting - after way of the cross tomorrow.
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ngshunchiu
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Posted -
2002/3/7 下午 06:19:44
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那你自說自話吧,我又何嘗要去回應你呢
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2002/3/8 上午 01:12:24
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Reading all this, I am beginning to understand that why lay ministry never works at all.
May be that is also why laity remain subordinate to clergy.
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2002/3/8 上午 01:17:26
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And may be thats the way to go with Catholics.
And may be laity has too much bitterness.
And may be ...
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/3/8 上午 10:24:12
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Lay ministry, in order to work, has to be built on mutual trust and respect.
You will no doubt realise from the postings here between my colleague Cecil and someone known as Ng Shun Chiu that there is already a long standing history of mutual distrust and even hostilities among different fractions. One fraction (Ng's fraction) was totally put off by the unexpected turn of events earlier, when the new group leader was being appointed (instead of being elected) 'without their knowing'. This was so because they never attended the group meetings for more than one year at least, and virtually cut themselves off by their absence.
How can there be lay ministry without participation? Why was participation so low?
In a large parish like this, lay ministry is required, but do the faithful there like lay ministry? Honestly, they don't! What they like is to pull the strings of the parish priest to do things that would please them. IF they fail to do so, they became bitter and uncooperative. That's what's happneing now.
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/3/8 上午 11:52:49
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"那些老太太們可能返錯了教會了,她們可能以為自己是在基督教的congregational church,天主教會在梵二前一直是家長制的,幾時有給信友否決權了.
就算是梵二後,在體制上有"多些"民主,但決策權仍不是民主的.
就算主教要她們的堂區"摺埋"也只是要諮詢司鐸議會,是不用先給她們(堂區)打招呼的,
她們同不同意也可"摺埋佢". 和她們打招呼只是比面她們吧了".
Got this passage from Mr Handsome next door. NgShunChiu should be made aware of this too before he points his fingers at people and things that he doesn't like.
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ngshunchiu
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Posted -
2002/3/8 下午 12:20:26
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唉又扮前輩.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/3/8 下午 12:43:23
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hope I am mature enough to response here.
I think Steve said a good pt here.
We, as laity are full of distrust and respect to others. If being so, lay ministry will never work.
Lay ministry is a calling, not a status, but when you refected on the posting, you will see that they "DON'T" treat it as calling. the think it is a "pig head bond"
When a community has a problem, we blames other for their poor performance, and think we are better than others, we read bible daily, we serve our parish, we attend the meeting, and they don't, they better leave our community or group, so that we can improve. If being so, Where is our catholicity?
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/3/8 下午 12:47:00
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Actually I'm older than most of you here.
One point - lay ministry is important. I am not Cissie and I can tell you that this never worked in our Parish.
Why? "cos there is always some 'strong' laity there saying that so and so should leave - and this, according to Cissie, never worked for her group so far because she has been standing stoutly against this!
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/3/8 下午 12:51:15
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Josemaria, my posting just telling you the fact, it doesn't mean that I agree this pactrice. When I was in San Francisco, Archbishop Quinns closed ten parishes in the city, then the parishioner appeal to Rome. They won, since the archbishop forgot to consult the council of priests. However, after the vedict, archbishop called the council meeting, then the parishes was closed again. You can find this case in "Jurist", published by the Canon law society of america.
One thing is, when archbishop quinns retired, the new archbishop reopen some of those churches. The new archbishop was one of his vicar generals then, but why he didn't against the closure.
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/3/8 下午 02:20:17
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Nor do I for this matter - I was just referring this Big Bro. Ng to open up and see what is there around, instead of just living in the ivory tower and poising unjst comments on the innocent laity who neither has the power nor the support required to run a successful lay ministry.
By the way, do not say that there is NO lay ministry in the parish.
There IS - from the most authoritative lay woman in our Diocese (not just our parish, you see). She stands just next to the big five in our diocese (you know what I mean). Even the PP has to 'see the colour of her face', to a certain extent. But then, of course, she is VERY polite and 'innocent' in front of our PP, except that she is quite another when he is not around. HAHAHa. That is the same parish.
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軍艦鳥
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Posted -
2002/3/9 上午 09:12:17
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Handsome 師兄,should you not start a new window titling "Lay Ministry". Perhaps this windown should be renamed as "Love and tear at big parish". Sorry of any offensive to any of my brothers and sisters. Indeed, coming from a small parish I am alarmed by the problems at "big parish".
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/3/9 下午 01:31:29
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ACtually it is nothing alarming - the sins of sinners are persistently present in this real world, and human weaknesses manifest in various ways. In big and well-known parishes like this, it is nothing alarming indeed.
The need for perserverence is great to follow Christ's way carrying the cross with us.
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PAUL
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Posted -
2002/5/16 下午 02:56:33
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對於天主教徒不愛看聖經此一命題,本人甚覺認同,有些人看到每年聖經學院的拓收情況就立即妄下判斷,說甚麼無知云云,根據天主教聖經學院的制度有分為文憑和普及課程兩種,數字告訴我們那班經過四年普及課程畢業的人,都不願再去讀文憑課程,原因其一是害怕功課考試等壓力,今年就更加得十數人報名讀文憑課程,而此數字已是學院教授們認為要感謝天主之數字,令本人最驚異的是這已是近數年人數最多的一年,而且,那班手持聖經文憑的"聖經學者",大部分都沒有為聖經工作或繼續進修聖經呢!!
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edward
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Posted -
2002/5/16 下午 04:24:17
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閱報者和傳理系學生，可否相提並論？
當然，我在這裡並不是說天主教徒有喜歡或不喜歡看聖經的習慣。你可以說：不喜歡看聖經的天主教徒不是很好的天主教徒，好的天主教徒應該是要喜歡看聖經的。但這對改善問題，未必有甚麼幫助。
我們有時很喜歡強調：讀聖經、加入善會等對信仰的重要性。彷彿是若不加入善會或時常讀聖經，就不是一位好教友。
為甚麼要看聖經？若聖經是天父給我們的「家書」，但若我覺得現是已「身在家中」的話，是否就要看呢？當然，有些人會喜歡在家中和自己的家人icq。為何不可讓人們有其與天主接觸的方法？我覺得大家應該對「與天主關係」的重視，重於對「你是否每天看聖經？」的重視。
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/5/17 上午 10:06:03
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'用'聖經來作靈修,是很好的建立跟天主關係的途徑,所以,教區會議提供信友勤做聖言誦讀(lectio divina),吳岳清神父也為信友開設這方面的課程,不宜錯過。
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PAUL
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Posted -
2002/5/17 下午 02:08:06
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那麼天主教徒便用這些藉口,他們會說:"我平時成日祈禱架!!主日又有去彌撒,不過無乜看聖經乍嗎!!"祈禱咪得羅,看聖經好鬼悶既",不錯,他們說的又不是沒有他們的道理,問題就是我們用了太多藉口,而很少有人會想出方法來,我非常認同cc姐及教區會議的題議,用聖言誦讀來作祈禱,一方面可減少這種悶的程度,二又不需要太多神修工夫,這方法最適合香港人啦!!!!
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edward
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Posted -
2002/5/17 下午 03:38:53
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將聖經包裝起來，是否就可增加教友們對聖經的興趣？我對這是抱著懷疑態度的。
人們之所以覺得聖經「悶」，就是對內裡的內容不感興趣。任你包它包裝得美侖美奐，然而，給引人的只能是這本書的外表。就如外國有些人在聖經內加插美女照片，人們袛是對美女有興趣，而不是對天主有興趣。
小弟以為，很少會有對聖經「特別覺得悶」的教友。當中的很多人，往往亦不會怎樣喜歡祈禱和禮儀的「內涵」。
Lectio divina這種聖經祈禱方式，我認為只對那些已對聖經及祈禱有濃厚習慣的教友有吸引力──這只是瞻仰臨在聖經中的天主的眾多方法之中的一種。「喜歡看聖經」與「喜歡祈禱」一樣，是需要「修」的德行，不能單訴諸「興趣」和「感受」的。我們要深信聖經是天主的話，並有著謙誠聆聽、在生活中遵行的心──這些都是超性的傾向。
「不需要很多神修工夫」的Lectio divina，做一次兩次可能覺得很過癮，但能否持之以恆，卻是很大的疑問。
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PAUL
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Posted -
2002/5/21 下午 01:39:53
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那麼我們應該怎樣才能提高教友們閱讀聖經呢??請指教!!
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/5/22 上午 09:54:00
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個人認為,這關乎信德 - 看你有多重視天主和你的'關係' - 重視的,就會尋找祂的'話'了,而且,是常有啟發的'話'.
入了這所謂'信仰的氛圍',自然對聖經'有興趣'了,
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PAUL
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Posted -
2002/5/22 下午 01:39:45
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那麼一個團體對培養聖經興趣便相當重要!!!
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/5/22 下午 03:05:01
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有團體,可以互相支援,這是'信仰小團體'的作用;但很多時,團體以少數服從多數,而多數不讀聖經,這就是問題了 - 好像鄙人堂區的'讀經團體',就是了(一如吳神父所笑說的,是"讀經(完)",在禮儀中讀完就算的讀經員!
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edward
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Posted -
2002/5/22 下午 09:05:15
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我亦曾經想過這問題，發覺這是需要從小做起的。
小弟會傾向於建議：堂區應每年搞一些青少年聖經問答比賽，並準備大量獎品包括巨額頭獎。我所指的「巨額」是指真正對青少年有吸引的獎品。若要吸引書蟲讀聖經，那麼，一張一千元的書券應是很具吸引力了。
重賞之下，必有勇夫。我認為這是鼓勵青少年讀聖經的最有效方法了。
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