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全部區域 > 信仰生活 > 牧民與信仰培育 > 對新一代女信眾的培育問題

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作者 內容

Josemaria


Posted -
2003/4/12 上午 10:52:41

The 'affair' is of course not a '誤會'as far as this lady is concerned.
She is now hovering like a kaula bear around the president of the council, a married gentleman.
What is wrong? This is what is known as 'behavorial problem', which is not uncommon. An experieneced person will spot this immediately and tackle it with skill. Inexperienced persons will fall prey, that's all.
Our pastor and this gentleman are both straight-forward types, inexperienced with women.

Cecil


Posted -
2003/4/12 上午 11:00:28

Well,如果會長的夫人沒有不高興,這也不能說是問題.反正,人家有太太,干旁人啥事?
神父卻不同 - 他們是公眾人物,教會的代表之一,他們的名譽何等重要!
今次真系好傷,希望神父不要再受這些這人折騰就好了.
請大家祈禱呀!

Cecil


Posted -
2003/4/12 下午 04:51:15

對於神父當事人而言,有所'誤會'也不奇;但堂區這麼多人眼見,卻情願背後手指指也不去勸阻,這就十分難明了.
這兒的堂區文化十分落伍和不開明,跟教區現在的方向大相逕庭.信仰培育肯定是失敗的了,事關凡事有果必可追溯其因;不開放,不透明,不科學,小圈子,小家子,動輒叫人不用再來,這樣的結果當然是腐敗 - 物必先朽而後凋;但願這兒不代表我們教區!
富裕堂區有意染指的人多著,管理很難,偏偏神父沒有足夠的管理堂區經驗,給人玩完又玩,氣完又氣,現在還給女人'非禮',名譽給人蹂踚,心靈和名譽大受打擊,也夠使人
心寒了.

Cecil


Posted -
2003/10/16 下午 05:43:07

年長一輩的女教友很尊重神長,對他們儘管可以五體投地的崇拜仰慕,但鮮有不自律者,不論已婚,未婚亦然.
隨時代改變,新一代女信眾,尤其從外地回流者,對神長的態度大不相同 - 可以因為老公外出而怕黑,而要求神長在家中培她過夜(當然,以外籍神父居多);又可以把神父當在男朋友般,攬身攬世,行親嘴等'西禮'.神長個別的尺度不同,也有好些'新派'份子,絕不以此為不妥.
當然,因此而在團體中出大問題,這就對教會的聲譽大為損害了.
不知教區對這方面,有啥培育的方案?
鄙人幼承庭訓,在修會學校時,長上對於我們應如何和神父相處,是有十分清楚的指示(如CHRISTIAN COURTESY等書籍,是每人必修的).
可嘆在今日聖召奇缺的時代,教會對這重要的培育竟如此掉以輕心!

去非


Posted -
2003/10/17 上午 12:35:25

這問題在以前也是有的﹐神父與女教友相戀不是近來才有的事情。但現在人們(包括教友)的觀念遠比以前“開放”。我想問題的癥結是在態度方面﹕如果女教友自己不懂得及不認為要迴避﹐那才有根本的麻煩。

但我想導致今天漸多神父“還俗”的原因﹐並不單在於女教友的“開放”態度。中學時﹐我認識一位在修生日教導我們教友的年青神父﹔我在數年前從舊同學處得知他“還了俗”。其原因與男女感情無涉﹐而是他抵受不住學校工作及老一輩神長給予他的壓力。在今天聖召奇缺的情況下﹐神長們都對這位年青神父寄予厚望甚或對他有極高的期望(老一輩的神父們直接的對他說期望他將來接任重位)。這expectation是一種要命的壓力﹐那位年青神父有幾次睡醒時發覺他床邊的矮桌給他在睡夢中推翻了。他實在是受不了﹐於是不再做神父。

我們別忘了神父們也是人而已。

Cecil


Posted -
2003/10/17 上午 09:42:36

對了.神父跟凡俗無異,所以教友對他們應該採取扶持的態度而不是動輒責難或加以誘惑.
開放的女教友們本身要受教理的培育,因為公教倫理本質上跟世俗的價值就是不同的.

Josemaria


Posted -
2003/10/17 上午 09:56:41

Very true. Work stress is a big issue in our society.
If the religious are under such inordinate stress, it would scarcely be a good thing for the Church.
The older mode of 'top down' hierarchy in all religious organisations are now being severely challenged.
However, this is quite another issue from the proper decorum of lady faithfuls.

去非


Posted -
2003/10/20 下午 05:32:36

就這個問題來說﹐如果新一代的女士們始終不認同這一套﹐即便教區提供了相關的教育﹐但言者諄諄﹐聽者藐藐﹐問題依然是不能得到解決的。

問題是在新一代的價值觀方面﹐這是很難改變的。例如教會的訓導說不可以進行婚前性行為﹐但在新一代的思維下﹐又有多少教友遵守﹖那些女教友們都是成年人了吧﹖她們應當清楚自己在做什麼。她們最終要為自己的行為負上責任的——尤其是對天主。我並不清楚實際的情況﹐所以就不多言了。

Josemaria


Posted -
2003/10/21 上午 11:33:27

Ugh, I think I may inject some information to Cecil and those concerned in the so-called 'church scandal finders'. I don't know if the Vatican has finished its investigation of the case - it concerned the would-be successor to Cardinal J. Sin of the Philippines, one Bishop Bacani, the spiritual director of the El Shaddai in Manila.
His secretary, with whom he worked for five years, reported sexual harassment by the Bishop at the end of the five-year term office, alleging that it was the harassment that made her resign (God knows? It was 5 long years.)
The scandal exploded and the Bishop and the church was discredited, though all that was alleged was some thing very minor - 'an inappropriate demonstration of misplaced affection by way of a hug'.
So for those lady faithfuls who choose to behave in a way susceptible to such scandal, they are not only putting the clergy to test, but the reputation of the Church, at stake.

Cecil


Posted -
2003/10/21 下午 04:11:30

呃,巴卡尼主教事件的報導看到了 - 心寒得很!
世道真的不行得可以就是了:為了使教會蒙羞? 為了報復解僱(可能這才是實情)? 為了主教不再'愛'她?
事件告訴我們 - 神長的名節,比蛋殼瓷更要薄.
那些到聖堂演肉的女信友,可否知道自己成為了撒殫的工具?

Cecil


Posted -
2003/10/23 下午 12:45:00

嗯,我看看香港的法例,這樣子的神職性騷擾案亦可以發生 - 性別歧視條例第四十條:
"(1)任何人如在向一名女性......提供......服務的過程中,對她作出性騷擾,即屬遺法"."
說實話,人是軟弱的,法律卻是嚴苛的;神父受了風騷女教友的引誘,作出可以構成性騷擾的行為(很容易的 - 說話也可以構成),那麼教會就好傷了.
如果各堂口不嚴禁女教友暴露,那是自開玩笑了.
我在這兒說,可不是開各位玩笑.

靜子


Posted -
2003/10/24 上午 01:47:17

不好意思啊。。各位﹗我想在這裡打岔問一個“沒有深度”的問題﹗﹗﹗

請問什麼是神長﹖什麼是平信徒呢﹖我不認識這兩個名詞﹗麻煩為我解釋的高人了。

Cecil


Posted -
2003/10/24 上午 11:03:38

進了鐸的神職人員我們敬稱他們'神長'.平信徒是laity.

Josemaria


Posted -
2003/10/28 下午 04:21:57

For the older generation of religious, they were very particular towards the church attire, especially of ladies in summer.
I remember listening to Rev. Peter Lo thundering over some sloppily dressed faithfuls in a Sunday evening mass at North Point about 10 years ago.
The lady faithful in question has sinced changed her way of attire in church.
Very effective, but seldom would priests do it nowadays. I don't know why. Any one tell me?

Cecil


Posted -
2003/11/22 上午 09:59:28

"問題是在新一代的價值觀方面﹐這是很難改變的。例如教會的訓導說不可以進行婚前性行為﹐但在新一代的思維下﹐又有多少教友遵守﹖那些女教友們都是成年人了吧﹖她們應當清楚自己在做什麼。她們最終要為自己的行為負上責任的——尤其是對天主。我並不清楚實際的情況﹐所以就不多言了。 "

就這些女信友的培育問題請教過北美洲教區一名方濟會士,得到非常完滿的解答,值得分享.
首先,指稱神織人員跟某某有染是嚴重的事情;除非親身目睹,決不應私下傳播;
其二,必須親自求證,循循善誘,尤其女方,必須對之痛陳利害,以免其泥足深陷;
如果目睹發生可疑行為,應即時對當事人作出不同意的禮貌表示,而不是'視若無睹'由其繼續;如發覺二人眼神有異,'眉目傳情',應馬上以"excuse ME"或類似的方式公然打岔,使其立即停止.
阿們.

Josemaria


Posted -
2003/11/22 上午 11:12:18

I think one more point is relevant to this issue - some priests are more vivacious in their manner and have a less 'sober' demeanour (like the one in my parish, 'happy parish').
It is WRONG for the women to treat this priest in a 'slighting' manner, thinking that he is DIFFERENT. As I observed many do in this particular place - they 'flirt' verbally, treating him like their 'boyfriend' with slighting words and mannerisms (including 'eye blinking' as mentioned above), let alone trying to approach him in various unbecoming ways, including hugging and kissing!
Remember, being approachable and personable is NOT his fault. To thus treat him with less respect than is due for a priest is something totally wrong and should not be tolerated.

Cecil


Posted -
2003/11/22 上午 11:35:34

老哥,真是一箸夾中哇!
這堂口的確招惹了一群近似「女色狼」般的信眾 - 已婚的飛開老公時時陪神父到海灘游泳,已給人不少話柄,有的外表斯斯文文冷冷漠漠,跟神父說話時卻眉來眼去,當正是親密男友,有的就騷到出面,飲大兩杯更出位到擁吻扭抱,這是甚麼所為?到頭來大家爭風吃醋,又當神父的名譽如草般賤,四出鞭撻,說完又不為自己的說話負責,完全沒品.這不是撒殫的手段是啥? 神父定力好是天主的恩寵,不等於這些人做得對。
這堂區的部分女士淪落至此,也真叫人痛心! 以後調來的神父們,可要小心了。

去非


Posted -
2003/11/23 下午 02:13:40

「其二,必須親自求證,循循善誘,尤其女方,必須對之痛陳利害,以免其泥足深陷;如果目睹發生可疑行為,應即時對當事人作出不同意的禮貌表示,而不是'視若無睹'由其繼續;如發覺二人眼神有異,'眉目傳情',應馬上以"excuse ME"或類似的方式公然打岔,使其立即停止.阿們. 」

能肯定他們之間的確是有曖昧的關係時﹐理論上或應如此做了。相信沒有教友會認為完全不須理會類似的事情﹐因為這很明顯的會影響到整個堂區﹔而出言相勸等都是合情合理的行為。但如果某一女教友是存心引誘﹐她完全不理會你的好言相勸﹐繼續其行動﹔在公然場合跟神父的眉目傳情被阻止﹐她便轉而私下與神父約會﹐不讓一般人與聞﹐兩人在沒有其他教友在場的情況下眉目傳情﹐甚或有更進一步的行動。甚至主教也知道了﹐把神父調離了堂區﹐但那女教友依然如故﹐仍私底下約會並引誘那位神父。那作為其他的教友﹐如何才能不“由其繼續”﹖

當人的力量有限﹐或已用盡了一切合理或合乎公義的方法時﹐應該怎樣做﹖

Cecil


Posted -
2003/11/24 上午 10:16:02

建制教會的'約束力'其實建立在信眾的'良心'上.
所以一如社會,當人心敗壞,良知泯滅,道德倫理風氣自然建立不起來.
如果真有如此神父,也就交他給天主處理算了.
中世紀時還少這樣子的嗎?
咱們身為教會一份子,責任是盡人事使不正之風改正,謀事在人,成事在天了.

Josemaria


Posted -
2003/11/25 下午 04:22:09

Some faithful take this sort of issue very impersonally, taking it as some private matter in terms of personal relationship between the pastor and the lady faithful.
I would not comment on the rights and wrongs of such attitude. However, I have reservations for this 'liberal' approach in the context of our celibacy requirement of our clergy. If only the laity knows a bit more about the entire concept of celibacy in our Church and the theology of it, I don't think such impersonal attitude will prevail as it is at present.

Cecil


Posted -
2003/11/26 下午 02:27:37

今天跟女教友們談天說地,說到性格'不羈'的神父,莫不低首不語.
天時,地利,加上人和,撒殫在教會'落藥',可真無所不用其極也!

Josemaria


Posted -
2003/11/26 下午 05:43:59

天時,地利,加上人和,撒殫在教會'落藥'-
I don't quite follow. Does it mean: owing to the presence of the new generation's civilisation of liberal attitudes towards sex and male/female relationships, our clergy is being presented with a plight most unenviable?
Or rather, the clergy is now being 'privileged' with the "extra attention by lady faithfuls' openness and slack behaviour"?
It depends on what type of person the pastor is - if he is like the one in happy parish, then of course he stands to gain. It is no secret that he fully enjoys these attentions. So does it follow that the good old-lady parishioners are now alluding to his "不羈"?
I am afraid you gals will have to put up with him longer than you desire, hahahah.

Cecil


Posted -
2003/11/27 上午 09:50:37

“家醜”不願外傳。
只能說,在我父母半世紀前舉行婚配聖事的聖堂祭衣房內,也發生這些濃厚桃色色彩的事件,對我和家人的打擊,絕不亞於去年五月爆發的孌童事件。
祭衣房是甚麼地方,神職人員會不清楚?
說不出誰是誰非,但這事已擾攘了一整年,恐怕絕非如當事人所說一場“誤會”而已。凡事有客觀標準,這事當時在團體中鬧出來,也並非純為針對某一兩人而已。神父若非事事「護短」,恐怕火頭也不會那麼快消到他頭上來吧?

carl


Posted -
2004/6/1 上午 02:20:48

教會歷中好似都有出過醜文,
而近代在某些外國
曾有神父另到修女大肚都有,
在台灣公開宗教板久不久就被重貼,
要教徒出口解釋,護教。

Cecil


Posted -
2004/6/1 上午 10:24:35

這些都有賴教友們自動自覺在團體內監察的.這堂區的年輕信眾在培育方面較弱,當然沒有這德倫理的意識.
且看以下的故事就明白,每人在堂區的態度就決定了堂區是怎樣子的了 -
• 一個上了年紀的木匠準備退休了。他告訴雇主,他不想再蓋房子了,想和他的老伴過一種更加悠閒的生活。
• 他雖然很留戀那份報酬,但他該退休了。
• 雇主看到他的好工人要走感到非常惋惜,就問他能不能再建一棟房子,就算是給他個人幫忙。木匠答應了。
• 可是,木匠的心思已經不在幹活上了,不僅手藝退步,而且還偷工減料。
• 木匠完工後,雇主來了。他拍拍木匠的肩膀,誠懇地說: 房子歸你了,這是我送給你的禮物。
• 木匠感到十分震驚:太丟人了呀……要是他知道他是在為自己建房子,他幹活兒的方式就會完全不同了。

• 你我不就是那個木匠!
• 每天你釘一顆釘子,放一塊木板 壘一面牆,但往往沒有竭心全力。終於,你吃驚地發現,你將不得不住在自己建的房子堙C

• 如果可以重來……但你無法回頭 - 人生就是一項自己做的工程,
我們今天做事的態度決定了明天住的房子 - 這 真是令人深省的暮鼓晨鐘!

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