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作者
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內容
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Cissie
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 12:07:42
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請問各位,討論的前題 - 是牧職的工作還是聖品的性質?我沒興趣討論神品的性質 - 純粹看牧職,有家庭"一定"影響牧民質素。執事結了婚針對家庭牧民會有較方便之處;但對屬靈牧養一定不及全心全意的修女神父!
我只是point out 這事實。請不要拉扯去聖品之爭議,變成"失重"! 本人跟本人相識的教友都眾口一聲強調這"全心全意"(total dedication),very sorry to cause disappointments了!
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Cissie
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 12:12:08
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I think it is important to differentiate:
Married persons are called to work in the Church in important aspects. However, their role is NOT the role of the clergy. The role of the clergy is NOT the role of the laity, either. This is just like using chopsticks for solid food but using spoons for liquid food. Spoons can pick up solid food, but very clumsily. Chopsticks however cannot pick up liquids at all.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 12:30:02
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Cissie姐, 是妳自己confuse大家的clergy means 神品, you can check 字典and canon law.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 12:34:53
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What are you talking about? Patoral work? spiritual guildance? or what? many celibate priests do not totally dedicate to their pastoral work either.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 12:44:29
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of course,The role of the clergy is NOT the role of the laity, but we are talking about celibacy, not clergy and laity. we can have celibate priest and married priest, it doesn't means that the married priest are layperson, neither do the married deacon! Priest and deacon are both clergy, whatever they are married or not, period.
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Cissie
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 12:45:25
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我說的是dedication的問題。放棄俗世的方便的dedication.不是歷史發展;不是職系;不是才能。人心對人心的"接心"問題。
婚姻是甚麼? Total dedication in heart to your spouse.
What is vocation as 神職?
We are now asking those with religious vocation to dedicate to their homes AS WELL AS to their active religious role to 牧養。That is not fair to their families as Christians.
Protestant s do not have religious vocations as such. That is historical. Well, they are being deprived, I must say. That is one of the main reasons I did not join the evangelists some years ago, even though is almost all aspects I think they are great.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 12:51:28
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If you are talking about pastoral work, then may be , just may be, I still have doubt, some kind of pastoral work are done better by celibate persons, like conselling to an unmarried person, but many other thing is just the same.
is just like aguring some thing a woman can do better than man. yea, some, but is that critical?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 12:57:36
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Some of the protestant do have religious vocation.
I have to say, Miss Aw, your understanding of a vocation of clergy and vocation of religious is mixed up.
this is two difference vocation, eventhough, today western church always join this together. but in theology and history which is very clear.
of course, religious has special 神恩. but the role of clergy IS NOT the role of religious.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 01:04:57
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mixing up two vocations resulting why the role of a religious women are clear than a role of religious men who are not clergymen (ie. Br). and they are alway forgotten by many people.
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 01:58:34
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Well, commitment to God may sometimes be easier than commitment to human. i.e. for some, celibacy is prefered to matrimony.
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Potato
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 02:13:58
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一大段英文，恕我未能讀悉。哈！哈！
純粹看牧職，有家庭"一定"影響牧民質素？我真係諗唔明喎？
甚麼是屬靈牧養？一個人有冇料，能否帶領教友在靈性上歸向
天主，只以有冇結婚來決定嗎？
「本人跟本人相識的教友都眾口一聲強調這"全心全意"。」
Cissie姐姐，妳認為整個教會也這樣想嗎？我們天主教教友有時
真的太過以“自我”為中心。基督的教會不單單指天主教啊，
就以東方教會為例，他們也是從宗徒傳下來的。然而大家有的
神職制度是不同的；在合一的道上，如何處理其中分別是必要
面對的。
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 02:20:14
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That I agreed with Steve. God is always said yes, but your wife......, haha
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Cissie
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 03:17:35
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如果已婚的可以全心奉獻生命給信仰,何必修道?帶髮修行也是獨身的時候才"修"。結了婚,就修另外的方面了。東正教/其他教派是否這樣,合一如何合法,都有很多另方面的考慮,不能囫圇吞棗的接收人家的"現況",就作為交"合一"的功課!
居士修道,修的是在家的道,不是出家的道。這很清楚的,佛教這方面很有法度條理 - 修道要出家修;修在家的道只是使'家庭'聖化。如果某教完全否定修道,那麼其"神職"/牧者不會有選擇 - 他一定是在家人。這教也只是在家的教 - 如喇嘛教。
咱們的天主教可不這樣;為何? 請先弄清楚!如果不同意這方面的教義,請另闢題討論(其實已討論過一次的了)。
牧民角度上看,難得我們的教是以出家人領導。修仕也好,修女也好,不是他(她)們更加神聖,而是他們的選擇 - 馬爾大和馬利亞,耶穌說哪個的選擇更好?
唉,我中文程度差,說來說去,要鑽我所說的話空子不難;但以上述的justification招徠就太太笑話了,一個修道的教淪落到人人說不用修道人領導,也真的夠淪落了!表示甚麼?
世俗化全面勝利!
如果以為通教理就等同修道,錯之又錯誤!!!
請先establish天主教根本不用修道再說。認同東正教等,或者'復古',先要確定獨身修道在天主教不重要或不需要。這不是俗家跟出家的辯論,各持己見：更不是"俗"權/'神'權之爭。我沒興趣參與這爭議 - 一,我不打算打教會工,而,亦不打算"出家",只是如實的反映我們的意見。
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Potato
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 03:42:59
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修道生活和牧職生活是有點不同的.而神父結婚的問題, 只限於教區神父而言. 修會神父現在和今後都冇可能可以結婚的.
恕我坦言, 要過修道生活的弟兄, 最好不要做教區神父. 堂區的俗務你估少架!? 校監呀, 顧問呀, 乜乜物物的工作, 這一切難道不會影響神父的修道生活嗎?
甚至, 作為一個平信徒, 其修道生活隨時比教區神父更好. 真是得罪得罪, 但這是事實. 不同之處只是神職的特恩是不能靠我們自己而得到的.
事實上, 教區神父本質就是以牧職為先.
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Cissie
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 03:44:51
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在家/修道的例子:原始佛教時,佛陀結了婚才出家修道。修道不能在家修。有了家庭後再來終身修道有遺倫理,所以天主教比原始佛教進步。教會卻不否定還俗嘛 - 先修;後俗,這是天主教的遊戲規則;很fair.
教會有出家/在家信眾,由誰人領導,跟由誰人"牧養",是兩回事。但如果不由牧者來領導,就更加不會有人當修道人吧?這可能是天主教發展下來的情況了。
由已婚人士牧養,有長處也有不少短處;看來是短處多過長處:筷子可挾食物卻不能挾水;spoon可取水,取食物則不夠靈活;在牧民事上,出家人是spoon,在家人是筷子。
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Cissie
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 03:47:23
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potato所言甚是 - 但堂區神父也可以delegate(委派)職務的。
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Potato
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 03:59:15
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妳是指有關終身執事的問題吧?
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歸一
管理人員
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 03:59:54
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天主教的核心是傳福音，不是修道。修道的出現，是因為想把天國的生活提早臨現在世。所以，我同意修道不是在家修的，因為天主教的修道生活，其中一個重點即在於是團體生活。
但是，這似乎和我們談神父可不可以結婚的重點，是在於對牧職的影響，而不是會否影響他的修道。
至於不修道人做領導，那就要看看如何理解領導了。因為在宗徒大事錄裡，宗徒選執事，就是要把教會事務權交出，好讓自己能專務祈禱。
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 04:02:17
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cissie姐, 請你先攪清楚你所說的修道是甚麼, 聖職是甚麼. 我開始越來越唔明妳講甚麼.
另外, 佛教的修道和基督徒的修道有明顯分別吧, 但東正教伯的修道生活卻和我們有共同的根源.
還有無論修道與否,基督徒的生命,起碼在意念上,是完全指向基督的.我們的生命是完全的被基督"買起".
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 04:17:44
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為何不領導就沒人修道?修道是為權嗎? 這是甚麼logic?
大把隱修士只做祈禱和體力工作,沒有"領導"
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Cissie
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 04:23:03
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這等修士卻可以"領導"修會吧?
potato的問題似乎集中在"牧養"的職務 - 是否要神父做'神父應否只限"出家"人 - ok不?
其實,不如問問各弟兄_如何看神職還俗這事?
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2001/5/28 下午 06:44:38
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It seems that we are drifting away from Potato's question : What would "YOU" ( each of us, laity ) think if priests are allowed to get married?
There are of course FOR and AGAINST. But does any of us care much about what do priests think?
Are we preoccupied by the assumption that everyone ( including priests ) would prefer to get married? Celibacy, being the renunciation of marriage, is being regarded as a more perfect observance of chastity.
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歸一
管理人員
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Posted -
2001/5/29 上午 08:33:59
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我始終認為，神父可以選擇是否結婚。我有某程度上同意Cissie的看法，因為如果單身神父又可以結婚，可能在傳道的過程中，做成不少感情的糾紛。不過，我們可否讓神父在晉鐸前，結婚與否呢？又或者，在晉鐸時，神父可以選擇發獨身願。
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Cissie
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Posted -
2001/5/29 上午 09:45:25
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一哥,其實如果還俗成風,在職的神父也很有感情的危機 - 我一位女性朋友就正跟某大修會的一位神父墮入了情網。不多說人家了,這很是senstive的,當事人很痛苦就是了。
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歸一
管理人員
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Posted -
2001/5/29 上午 10:06:33
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所以不是獨身與否的問題，而是培育的問題。機制上、制度上的限制總是有其局限的，但是，如果一個神父真的過著很好的團體生活，就可以減少這些痛苦了。
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