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作者
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內容
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/7/15 下午 12:13:23
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本期公教報關神父提及堂區神父不好做之處,鄙人身為信友,也有一點點話要說。
我在堂區中的善會,有神師一名,他上月初放大假返租家三個月,由於他是外籍人士,又是修會神父(外借到堂區而已),在他放假期間,昨天公暑宣佈他不會回來我所屬的堂區,卻是到另一堂區去了!真的很意外!
同時,同他一個修會的另一名堂區中的神父,本月中又特然調會修會去,還是連合約也未滿的,真的很奇怪了,因為堂區一下子走了兩名神父,由四變二,留下來的另一位副本堂已七老八十的了,本堂又年前才心臟病發,使我們信友很擔心本堂區每主日的十台彌撒如何安排 - 教區除了不顧神父,任意short notice或no notice安排調職外,更無視教友(1)跟神父的交情(我神師就一去如黃鶴);(2)教友在堂區參與的方便(個半神父開十台八台彌撒,叫教友去大熱天時當邦兇謀殺神父!?)
我是被迫借此欄強烈抗議教區是次對堂區的一連串行動,admin哥哥情通容通容,謝謝!
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/7/25 下午 09:44:44
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By canon law, I don't think it is lawful to have a priest to celebrate more than three masses a day, especially it is noticed that it will happen beforehead. and the condition of hk doesn't fit by the "pastoral reason" since we have enough priests to celebrate masses and also your area is not a isolated dictrict.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/7/29 上午 10:25:25
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Thanks,Handsome. I will feedback to the appropriate person in charge in the Parish.
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PAUL
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Posted -
2002/9/1 下午 09:27:00
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我真係唔明竟有堂區為歡送一個本堂神父而取銷一堂彌撒，還對當日之彌撒時間作出改動，使做成教友的不便，有教友去到教堂，誰不知沒有彌撒，真是掃興，最重要的是，彌撒作為主的延席，有誰能更改時間呀？？以本人所知，要是一個堂區，沒有足夠的神父開彌撒，當然可以更改啦，但現在是有足夠神父，只是神父們要去玩樂而已，我又要問，根據法典內有否一些條例是可禁止此情況呢？？
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/9/3 下午 07:59:35
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我想沒有這規定.這樣做很可能是不恰當或不明智的做法.但如該堂區於該主日仍有彌撒,而事先也照會了教友,那我見不到有何明顯而直接的不合法的地方.
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2002/9/4 下午 12:14:42
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Sometimes, we all forget they are also just human beings.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/4 下午 06:13:27
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明白paul的心情,但還只一句 - 包容吧。往別處逛逛,海闊天空,心境舒暢著哩!有空再兜回去吧。
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jedi
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Posted -
2002/9/4 下午 10:18:38
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那神父選擇接受教友在主日歡送他，想必有嚴正理由，動輒「要問根據法典內有否一些條例是可禁止此事？」，是否必要？教友有沒有考慮作為神父的感受？
每個主日，不知幾多教友因為「選擇」飲茶食飯睇戲而放棄望彌撒，當神父的又能作什麼？ 能按什麼法典禁止教友去飲茶食飯睇戲？而每個主日，不管祭台下的會眾熱誠冷淡，神父都要主持彌撒，無得「選擇」。
聽聞某一周刊報導某神父彌撒前和兩位朋友上酒家睇世界杯，三人吃了魚翅和五個小菜，更抽雪茄！比起Paul堂區那神父參加歡送會，不用說前者一定是十惡不赦！ 究竟神父有什麼自由，可做什麼，又不可做什麼？抽雪茄是否比抽煙大罪？可以吃魚翅嗎？又還是吃例湯罷了：好東西是教友的專利。
教友當得不好是應份的，神父耐我如何？還不是講道時客氣地提醒教友。神父稍有行差踏錯，就被指指點點。神父避免被扣神職主義帽子而不敢得罪教友，可能多於教友受神職的氣！教友主義比神職主義還來得恐佈！以前神職權傾天下，比皇帝還專橫。風水輪流轉，近代人不只是否矯枉過正，過份抑壓神職主義，神父在教友/公眾監察之下，「惶恐」渡日，難怪聖召低落！
都是Cecil講得好，彼此要包容！和steve所講的要以對待一般人的平常心對待神父。教友在怨氣可盡情發洩，神父呢？
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Augustine
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Posted -
2002/9/5 上午 11:04:38
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Yes...reasonable.
"還不是講道時客氣地提醒教友。神父稍有行差踏錯，就被指指點點。神父避免被扣神職主義帽子而不敢得罪教友，可能多於教友受神職的氣！......教友主義比神職主義還來得恐佈！"---Absolutely
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/5 上午 11:09:53
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堂區/教區的情況,真的要兩面看 - 如果做不到'多面'看的話。這兩期'公教報'特別篇幅討論教友婚配預約聖堂碰到的問題,的確有點兒使人心冷 - 指神父不該'偏愛'善會成員,更使人痛心:本來,每一名信友都應該是善會成員,但事實差得遠,這已經夠使人心淡,更說神父明言偏袒他們不對,這說法其實漠視了很多重要的信仰關係:
(1)堂區是每名信友參與教會活動的地方,不同組織迎合不同的口味,不去參與團體,不實踐信仰,這也沒話說了;
(2)沒有參與實踐的,自然少接觸面,神父認得你,他已經本事了;
(3)堂區不是婚配聖堂的,要到別的聖堂去,是有點兒吃虧的,但理應盡早跟就近的聖堂本堂聯絡,參加'那兒'的婚前指導;
(4)不參與堂區活動而過該區結婚是會加長該本別區教友的輪候時間,是不應該的做法。
偏偏一些熱門堂區教友人人想到,人人要入,善會成員上千,平日在區內已見'打崩頭'情況,再加外來客,不得可了到如何地步,可想而知了。
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/5 下午 12:42:49
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The "KKP" letter and article referred to reflect the prevailing mentality of the faithful 'scarmbling into parish service' in that particular parish, because the P.P. 'acknowledges' such participation.
This should be the correct approach, except that not too few back there are manipulating things by 'grabbing' good and easy jobs to do, leaving dirty jobs to others, as observed.
Some 'easy to work' groups attract more members than necessary, and the group becomes large and excessively unwieldy. Many moms rush in to get a job so as to help their kids along in Catholic schools. This is undertandable.
However, it made life of those in charge extremely difficult. Cecil should be able to tell you a lot more of such stuff, though she has adamantly refused to 'report' such 'deals'!
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/5 下午 03:46:28
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"Reporting"?
這不會有用，我才不枉作小人。清者自清,濁者自濁,God is not dead.不能同流合污,他方去也樂逍遙!
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josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/5 下午 04:12:17
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I know which one you're referring to. Well, she is outright unco-operative, and rude at times. Many at the Chapel know about this. Just that they do not voice it out.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/5 下午 04:23:34
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"Rude", 'unco-operative'已經不好但不是大錯。故意因為不高興人家的孩子的一句真實的童言(說她常常遲到),而飛一同做堂區服務的小孩媽媽出局,就很有問題!
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/5 下午 05:13:44
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It does appear from what I gathered, that some parishioners here are making use of the reverend fathers' vulnerabilities to their own ends (be it emotional, psychological or whatever). I've heard say this for quite some time already.
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2002/9/6 上午 12:02:07
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It seems that it is all about parishioners ganging up against each other, which is nothing new as in 1 Cor.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/6 上午 10:06:45
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到主教公暑投訴不是正確的解決途徑。
當然,事件發展得不可開交,使到親者(熱心教友)痛,仇者(魔鬼)快,對教會肯定會有負面影響了。
以本人十分有限的知識,在過去也有其他堂區教友對這位大本堂有同樣的投訴。
有些事情,主教尊重神父是好的，但以下的貼文,用在教區,其實也是上好的提醒:-
"True Story with a lot of truth
In light of the many perversions and jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke, it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.
我們轉寄很多錯亂的文章和笑話以博君一燦為樂，這一篇卻有點不一樣：這篇不是笑話，它一點都不好笑，它只想叫你認真想一想。
Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).
葛理翰牧師的女兒接受Jane Clayson 的訪問，被問到：上帝怎能允許這樣的事情（指911攻擊事件）發生？她回答得十分恰當且深具洞見。她說：
Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"
『我個人相信上帝對這件事和我們一樣非常傷心；只是，這麼多年來，我們一直叫上帝不要管我們的學校，不要管我們的政府，以及我們的生活。上帝是正人君子，我相信他就靜靜地站到一旁。我們既然強令祂遠離我們，又如何能期待祂保護我們並且賜福我們呢？』
In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school ... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
看看最近發生的事情，包括恐怖攻擊、校園槍擊等等，我認為事情最早開始於Madeleine Murray O'Hare女士（她被殺害，屍體最近被發現）。她埋怨校園裡的禱告，她說她不想要校園裡有禱告，大家答應了。然後有人說，最好不要在學校裡讀聖經…聖經說不可殺人、不可偷盜、要愛鄰舍如同愛你自己，而大家答應了。
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.
然後Benjamin Spock博士說，我們的兒女做錯事的時候不應該責打他們，以免他們幼小的人格受到損傷，恐怕傷害他們的自尊（Spock的兒子是自殺死的），而大家同意了。
Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK.
然後有人說，我們的兒女在學校做錯事的時候，老師和校長最好不要管教他們。學校行政人員說，教職員不可以碰做錯事的學生，因為不想事情鬧開，更不想挨告（管教和碰觸、打、摑、踢、侮辱等，有很大的差別），而大家同意了。
Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK. Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK.
然後有人說，讓我們同意我們的女兒墮胎，甚至她們可以不必告知父母，而我們同意了。然後有一些聰明的學校委員會成員說，因為男孩終歸是男孩，他們早晚會做那件事，給他們保險套吧，要多少給多少，好讓他們盡興，並且我們不必讓他們的父母知道他們從學校拿到保險套，而大家同意了。
Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.
然後有一些我們選出來的高級官員說，我們私底下做什麼沒關係，只要我們做好份內的工作。我們同意他們這樣說，我們也說，任何人，包括總統，私底下做什麼沒關係，只要我有工作而且經濟看好。
Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK.
然後有人說，讓我們編印有裸女照片的雜誌，稱之為對女性胴體的健康的、務實的欣賞，而大家同意了。
And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.
然後有一些人更進一步地印製兒童的裸體照，甚至在網際網路流通這些照片，而大家同意地說，他們這樣做是言論自由。
Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.
然後娛樂業者說，讓我們製作充滿血腥、暴力、不正當的性行為的電視節目和電影；讓我們錄製鼓勵強姦、嗑藥、謀殺、自殺、和凶惡的主題的音樂，而我們說：那只是娛樂，不會有不利的影響，不會有人當真，盡管做吧。
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."
如今我們問說，為什麼我們的兒女沒有良心？為什麼他們不能分辨對錯？為什麼他們不以殺害不認識的人、同學、和自己為不安？假如我們想得夠久並且夠深的話，可能我們會得到答案。我認為，這正是「種瓜得瓜」。
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.
實在好笑，人們棄上帝如弊履，卻苦思何以世界步步下落地獄。實在好笑，我們相信報紙所說的，卻質疑聖經所記載的。
Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
實在好笑。你可以在網路上轉寄笑話，使它們像原野之火般的蔓延；但是，當你寄出談論上帝的篇章，人們卻遲疑要不要轉送出去與人分享。
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
實在好笑。猥褻的、粗俗的、不雅的、和淫穢的文章透過電腦通路無阻礙地流傳；而學校和工作場合卻禁止人公開討論上帝。
Are you laughing? 你笑了嗎
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
實在好笑，你沒有轉寄這篇給你通訊錄上所有的朋友，因為你不確定其中一些人所信的是什麼，或者你不確定他們會怎麼猜想你為什麼寄給他們。實在好笑，我們比較擔心別人怎麼看待我們，而比較少擔心上帝怎樣看我們。"
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Augustine
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Posted -
2002/9/6 下午 01:52:25
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insightful.
The secularism in the society can even infiltrate the Church, I have seen dozens of liberal parishes when I was in the US.
St. Pius X, pray for us that God deliver us from the modernist snares!
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/8 下午 03:38:29
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"...Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.
然後Benjamin Spock博士說，我們的兒女做錯事的時候不應該責打他們，以免他們幼小的人格受到損傷，恐怕傷害他們的自尊（Spock的兒子是自殺死的），而大家同意了。
Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK.
然後有人說，我們的兒女在學校做錯事的時候，老師和校長最好不要管教他們。學校行政人員說，教職員不可以碰做錯事的學生，因為不想事情鬧開，更不想挨告（管教和碰觸、打、摑、踢、侮辱等，有很大的差別），而大家同意了。 "
A parish is a place for the faithful to develop. If those 'bad' ones got elevated and not disciplined, how would parishioners react?
Fr in the September parish Newsletter 'threw all his cards' on this lady' by issuing a statement that the entire parish council supported her 'election' into the Council. We all know this to be just for 'show'. Nobody on the current Council 2000-2 know her well because she never participated in parish activities during their past term of office. Didn't even attend regular small group meetings, late for important masses, not maintaining good terms with fellow faithful working back in the Chapel...
She, however, maintained a superb relationship with Father. That's all.
How on earth COULD such 'favoritism' irrespective of merits be beneficial to the parishioners at large?
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/9 上午 10:02:12
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Well, upon reflection, MAY BE she wanted to show others that she is really good...But these aren't really important.
What counts is that there is before her a golden opportunity to GROW UP with parish service.
If she was self-centred, let her change. If she was unco-operative, let her learn cooperation, be it the hard way.
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jedi
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Posted -
2002/9/9 下午 07:47:55
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有些人是十分擔心神職主義，所以對laity抱很更大期望，唯有神職和平信徒的合作，教會才可過渡到未來。這世界目前面對聖召短缺問題，現實正迫使神職班首先和平信徒合作，教會不得不尋求解決的方法，不能再停留在金字塔式的由上(教的、聖的、管治的)而下(被教的、俗的、被管治的)模式了！
有人高唱神職權力的decentralization，也期待平信徒能承擔牧養羊群這個重任。在一遍後現代的潮流中，稍有抗拒或不同意平信徒承擔牧職的，很容易被打壓成神職主義。似乎支持神職的反而變得保守、落伍、不能與時代並進！
但支持平信徒承擔牧職的，又是否想到教友本身的多元化，既是其長處，更是其短處！由教友領導時很難像神職班那般容易取得共識。其中涉及爭權奪利、勾心鬥角，堂區還不是和一般世俗的團體一模一樣，似乎由人組成的團體就必然有政治鬥爭，教友聖的一面完全消失？就像這堂區的分歧，e.g.「親者仇者」，又話「魔鬼」，又話「清者濁者」，又話「同流合污」，又話rude and un-cooperative，又話favouritism，這些又豈指分歧？
教友參與牧民工作落得如此下場，難道教會還能旨意教友擔大旗？教友自己不爭氣，又那有資格批評神職死頂抓著大權不放！
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/10 下午 01:02:58
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"由教友領導時很難像神職班那般容易取得共識。" -
有道理的說法,但不論教友或神職,'共識'均'全然重要'。在這論及的堂區,信友有跟信友沒'共識'的,神父也有跟神父沒'共識'!
說到底,是溝通出了大問卷調題。
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/11 上午 10:06:44
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'是溝通出了大問卷調題'-是'出了大問題'的誤植。
攬大權不放不是錯，但這也要有'共識' - 人人清楚非其話不能算數;而不是無呎度的時而寬,時而緊,看心情,看人(最要不得),不信任的人又用,用了,又用親信來'制衡'!
我從不愛爭權,但入了這樣的圈子,不爭不能生存,所以我唯有'走為上著'。
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/11 下午 01:57:03
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"神職主義.....似乎支持神職的反而變得保守、落伍、不能與時代並進"-
There is a strange phenomenon in this parish that I have observed in context of the above. I do not advocate a disregard or disobedience of the pastor's directions in religious matters like liturgy.
It is well-known that the faithful there do not like feet washing at the Lord's Supper. This easter, the leader of the readers (a lady used to be in charge of the whole group) 'advised' the APP 'not' to wash the feet of the faithful because 'they did not like it'.
At the Chapel, the PP not only washed the feet of the faithful, but announced at homily that 'the outstandingily charming lady' will wash the feet of the faithful, to the amazement of many St Paul Sisters who attended the service.
Well, I disagree with both approaches.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/11 下午 02:04:52
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說得好 - 問題不應是'神職主義'抬頭抑低落。如此阻止神父為信友洗腳是驕傲行徑;本堂找堂花洗腳本無不妥,壞在以'靚女為你們洗腳'來帶入題,完全離譜!
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