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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2002/9/11 下午 03:25:58
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I will surely attend mass in this parish next Easter - I would not allow myself to miss the parish flower!!!
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/12 上午 10:07:32
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所謂'神職主義'云云,源頭是神長對信眾的不信任。是的,社會複雜,人事更帶來很多麻煩。
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/12 上午 10:10:10
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Steve: the 'Flower' is already there every Sunday, now that she is 'commissioned' to be the leader of the entire congregation - to 'report' to Fr on the functioning of the Chapel. She reads at Mass (10 a.m.) nearly every week now.
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2002/9/12 下午 02:10:38
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Thanks for the heads up. I ll be right there.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/12 下午 02:57:12
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Oh, Steve, don't be mistaken - the "flower" is mass reader at the Chapel normally. She'll go to the diocese centre after mass only. Sorry to have aroused your curiosity.
There are of course many more 'flowers' here. There are much more women than men in the parish generally.
Quite a different story at NP's St Jude's, where I am going now. There the men/women ratio are almost equal.
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歸一
管理人員
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Posted -
2002/9/15 下午 12:27:00
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其中一兩段是否有人身攻擊之嫌呢？
關於神職主義，許多人都把焦點放在神職本身，而忽略了神職主義是整個團體的問題。神職確實是有其權威，在牧民與訓導上，其權威是不可被忽略的；但是在此以外，他都是一個人而已。今天所謂神職主義，就是把神職的權威放諸所有的事上，於是堂區好似屬於本堂的，教友忘記了，堂區是屬於自己的。如果覺得本堂不妥，應該向他反映以至抗爭，因為堂區不是屬於他的，也屬於妳的﹗但是，另一方面，又不用事事都要獲得本堂的支持，因為堂區既然屬於妳的，妳可以做妳自己覺得正確的事情。
問題是：我們返堂區，有沒有信仰的成分呢？還是仍然以返工的心態，世俗主義的心態來看自己在堂區中的地位呢？
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jedi
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Posted -
2002/9/16 下午 09:52:23
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我倒不擔心神職主義，香港教友反正都懶得理，天主教特色嘛！
擔心的反而是期望教友可以分擔職務的，看這欄內的是是非非，你叫教會如何能把如斯重任交付給教友？教友自己不爭氣，那有資格批評人家神職主義，大權獨攬，還不是乖乖地「被牧養」吧了！
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/17 上午 10:39:50
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為何教友會'唔乖'?
當中可以研究的太多太多。討論中的堂區是典型'樣版'一件:
陽奉陰遺者、訶腴奉承者充斥'領導層',真正做事的反成少數民族,身為信眾,也不能不恢心就是了,還談甚麼'協助牧民'? 落入如此團體,可真的連自己也牧不來呀。
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/17 下午 12:03:46
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The concern of Jedi is well-founded. In a place like this parish, only a handful of the faithful are well-equipped to undertake lay ministry. Most, if not all, of the 'leaders' are either too busy or too lazy, and some are so well-established that they ignore the pastor's directions. Worst still, some are even gossipy to a scandalous degree. If ever one bothered to 'voice' out the shortcomings, most probably it would be futile, since the position is so chaotic back there.
With such a quality of 'pastorship' by lay faithfuls, what could one expect of lay ministry?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/9/17 下午 02:55:52
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This post is removed by the Forum Administrator.
If you have any inquiries, please email to admin@theology.org.hk.
Thank you very much.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2002/9/17 下午 02:59:07
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有樣嘢我想問而禁問很耐的,試問問看.
為何這麼"差"的堂區,每年仍有這麼多人擁去.
是因為其教堂"建築",學校網,想沾染一些"富貴"?
這地區邊有咁多人住呀?
為何堂區容許這種情況不斷繼續?
這不健康的現象是如何發生的呢?
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/17 下午 03:37:33
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As far as could be seen, the parish is 'very prosperous'. The organisation is a huge one, largely and effectively laid down by the previous parish authorities, and as the Chinese saying goes, even a sunken ship has its nails.
There are 'effective' lay people around - those that 'survived' generations of parish priests, form the PIMEs to the local diocesan ones. However, the good tradition as laid down is, as could be seen, fast eroding.
Could any one imagine sexy dresses all around at Sunday masses? Could any one imagine faithfuls allowing their vehicles to jam the road outside on Sundays? Could any one imagine open 'labellings' of 'lady charming' at mass service?
The 'new' pastoal style does attract lots of people - even 'pagans'. Just come at Christmas Eve, and you'll find half of the district late night birds filing into the two churches in the parish at mid-night. They gather to chat, to eat, some even to smoke, and needless to say, conversing endlessly on cellular phones.
Very distasteful to the normal faithfuls. Sunday masses at here fare no better. Flooded with unruly guys and gals, placing the kids on the base of the marble pillars. Offeratory collectors going about chewing stuff (during mass!). People leaving the mass in the midst of it to steal a puff of smoke...
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/17 下午 03:58:48
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可以告訴靚兄一、二 - 我還'在位'時,三番四次受到議會方面的'重托',著我'整頓'全組,但做起來時,發覺(一)本堂不表態支持;(二)舊領導人全力為舊人護航,更千方百計向各方隱瞞許多做得不好不妥善的事實。
正是'舊的不走,新的不來',我當然不能留下了。傀儡組長做來作唅？
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steve
管理人員
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Posted -
2002/9/17 下午 04:11:44
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I share Jedi’s worry as well : lay ministry perhaps exist only as an ideal!
Can it ever work out? Yes, way back in early churches when the whole congregation is united. Yes, when all the faithful were under prosecution and their souls were united.
Nowadays, we may still have a chance for lay ministry to work out. The rapid decline in vocation has already provided the need for lay ministry already. All we need is a matured congregation.
But the point is that even if we have all the right things here, we don’t have such a congregation yet. How can we suppose that to work? Those who really want to serve the parish would surely feel heartbroken knowing that a bunch of jokers would run the show? What are they to do? To walk away with their heads down, or to fight hard for the running of their parish? Or what? What would St Paul do? ( Didn’t he also found a bunch of jokers running the show as in Galatians? ) ( Or was he the joker himself? )
Surely, lay ministry has a strong theological foundation and is deeply rooted in the tradition of the Church. But doing it for the sake of wanting it to happen would end up like what is happening in this parish. The laity have themselves to blame.
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/17 下午 04:52:17
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The mentality of most faithfuls in HK is still skeptical about lay ministry.
The lack of priestly vocation these days of course meant that lay ministry MUST somehow come into being in every parish.
How to control the 'quality' of this lay ministry will be the next crucial question.
If P.P.s just rely on their own limited contact (especially new P.P.s) to choose people for lay ministry, he is really taking undue risks at the expense of the entire parish.
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歸一
管理人員
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Posted -
2002/9/17 下午 05:20:38
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談了這麼多，還是回到同一個問題：為什麼堂區只可以有一個方向，一個核心，一個對錯呢？為什麼要爭本堂呢？堂區的運作很政治化，往往在於大家都要全體走同一個路向的問題。為什麼不可以在堂區內有不同的團體，有事互相合作，無事各自修行，既可以交流，亦可以同路。
回到基本：堂區的存在，為的是什麼呢？
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Cecil
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Posted -
2002/9/17 下午 05:28:51
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曾經有新教的弟兄問我 - 在教會做義工,可以有'個人'化的取向嗎?領導人兼顧個人生意上的利益,可以嗎(基督教不同天主教,一切都是'自付盈虧'的)？
我反問這位新教律師同行 - 你以律師身份看,怎樣?回答快而準 - 利益衝突。
所以,教會,善會,以至三合會,都是 - '義'為首,利為副;'義'的內容當然不可能同日而語,但基本'模式'似乎還是一樣!
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2002/9/17 下午 05:45:31
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well, Cecil only pointed out the 'outward' institutional issues.
I think Brother One is even more concerned with the 'core' stuff, i.e. should there be (1) democracy? (2) freedom of 'thoughts' and 'expression'?
I think both (1) and (2) are ideals - Utopia. It isn't really possible, not even for the early Church.
Nowadays, we do not lack (1) and (2) in the lay society. What is being lacked is a 'way' towards the only 'truth' - the Truth of Christ via the lay church, manned by sinners and administered by pastors that may be mediocre.
To strike a happy balance is a very difficult job indeed. As seen, the parish flopped badly in this aspect.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2003/1/22 下午 12:16:43
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各位看官,以上本人的貼文是出於跟本堂神父的誤會而引發的,對(1)神父本人;(2)'堂花'小姐本人,俱為由欠公允者,鄙人的確十分歉疚。
查這堂區人口多,事務繁,神父少,是非多,擔當少,彈劾多,俱是我們信友有份做成的,絕不能把責任全推到本堂神父的身上!
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