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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/22 下午 12:26:41
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茲刊出1549-1662(現在仍有效)之公禱書,領聖餐後禮文以作比較.
From the 1549 Prayer Book
ALMIGHTY and everliving God, we most heartily thank
thee, for that thou hast vouchsafed to feed us in these holy
Mysteries, with the spiritual food of the most precious body
and blood of thy son our saviour Jesus Christ, and hast
assured us (duly receiving the same) of thy favour and
goodness towards us, an that we be very members
incorporate in thy Mystical body, which is the blessed
company of all faithful people, and heirs through hope of thy
everlasting kingdom, by the merits of the most precious death
and passion of thy dear son. We therefore most humbly
beseech thee, 0 heavenly father, so to assist us with thy
grace, that we may continue in that holy fellowship, and do all
such good works, as thou hast prepared for us to walk in:
through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom with thee and the
holy ghost, be all honour and glory, world without end. Amen.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/22 下午 12:27:36
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From the 1552 Prayer Book
O LORD and heavenly father, we thy humble servants
entirely desire thy fatherly goodness, mercifully to accept this
our Sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving: most humbly
beseeching thee to grant, that by the merits and death of thy
son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood, we and all thy
whole church may obtain remission of our sins, and all other
benefits of his passion. And here we offer and present unto
thee, 0 Lord, our selves, our souls, and bodies, to be a
reasonable, holy, and lively sacrifice unto thee: humbly
beseeching thee, that whosoever shall be partakers of this
holy Communion, may be fulfilled with thy grace and
heavenly benediction. And although we be unworthy through
our manifold sins to offer unto thee any Sacrifice: Yet we
beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service, not
weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences, through
Jesus Christ our Lord; by whom, and with whom, in the unity
of the holy ghost, all honour and glory be unto thee, 0 father
almighty, world without end. Amen.
Or this.
ALMIGHTY and everliving God, we most heartily thank
thee, for that thou hast vouchsafed to feed us, which have
duly received these holy mysteries, with the spiritual food of
the most precious body and blood of thy son our saviour
Jesus Christ, and hast assured us thereby of thy favour and
goodness towards us, and that we be very members
incorporate in thy mystical body, which is the blessed
company of all faithful people, and heirs, through hope, of thy
everlasting kingdom, by the merits of the most precious death
and Passion of thy dear son. We now most humbly beseech
thee, 0 heavenly father, so to assist us with thy grace, that we
may continue in that holy fellowship, and do all such good
works, as thou hast prepared for us to walk in: through Jesus
Christ our Lord, to whom, with thee and the holy ghost, be all
honour and glory, world without end. Amen.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/22 下午 12:28:10
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From the 1559 Prayer Book
O LORDE and heavenly father, we thy humble servaunts,
entierly desire thy fatherly goodnes mercifully to accept this our
Sacrifice of praise and thankesgeving moste humblye besechynge
thee to graunte, that by the merites and death of thy sonne Jesus
Christ, and throughe faith in his bloude, we (and all thy whole
church,) may obteine remission of our sinnes, and al other
benefites of his passion. And here we offer and presente unto the,
O Lord, our selves, our soules, and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy,
and lively sacrifice unto the, humblye beseching the, that al we
which be partakers of this holye communion, may be fulfilled with
thy grace, and heavenly benediction. And although we be
unworthye throughe our manifolde sinnes, to offer unto the any
sacrifice, yet we beseche the to accept this our bounden duty and
service, not weighing our merites, but pardoning our offences,
throughe Jesus Christ our Lord, by whom and with whom, in the
unitie of the holy ghoste, all honour and glorye be unto the, O
father almighty, world without ende. Amen.
Or this,
ALMIGHTY and everlastinge God, we moste hartely thancke
the, for that thou doest vouchsafe to fede us, whiche have duly
received these holy misteries, with the spiritual fode of the moste
precious body and bloude of thy sonne, our saviour Jesus Christ,
and doest assure us therby of thy favour and goodnes towarde us,
and that we be very membres incorporate in thy mistical body,
whiche is the blessed company of al faithful people, and be also
heyres through hope of thy everlasting kingdom, by the merites of
the most precious death and passion of thy deare sone. We now
most humbly beseche the, O hevenly father, so to assist us with thy
grace, that we may continue in that holy felowship, and do all
suche good workes as thou hast prepared for us to walke in,
throughe Jesus Christe our Lord; to whom with the and the holy
ghost be all honour and glory, world without ende. Amen.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/22 下午 12:28:43
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From 1560 Prayer Book in Latin
Omnipotens aeterne Deus, immortales tibi ex animo gratias
agimus, quod nos, qui haec Sacrosancta Mysteria rite
percepimus, pascere digneris spirituali cibo praeciosissimi
corporis et sanguinis filii tui Servatoris nostri Jesu Christi,
nosque certos reddis horum participatione de tuo favore ac
gratia erga nos, et quod sumus vera membra in corpore tuo
mystico incorporata, quod est sancta communio omnium
fidelium, quodque haeredes sumus secundum spem vitae
aeternae, per merita Praecioissimae Mortis et Passionis
dilectissimi Filii tui. Nos ergo supplices rogamus, O Pater
coelestis, it nos [nobis] tua gratia semper adsis, ut in hac
Sanctissima Communione perseveremus et omnia hujusmodi
opera bona faciamus, quae tu praeparasti ut in eis ambulemus,
per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum, cui cum Spiritu
Sancto, [et] tibi sit omnis honor et gloria in omnem aeternitatem.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/22 下午 12:29:15
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From the 1662 Prayer Book
O LORD and heavenly Father, we thy humble servants entirely desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; most humbly beseeching thee to grant, that by the merits and death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood, we and all thy whole Church, may obtain remission of our sins, and all other benefits of his passion. And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, ourselves, our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and lively sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee, that all we, who are partakers of this holy Communion, may be fulfilled with thy grace and heavenly benediction. And although we be unworthy, through our manifold sins, to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service; not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences, through Jesus Christ our Lord; by whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honour and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world without end. Amen.
Or this.
ALMIGHTY and everliving God, we most heartily thank thee, for that thou dost vouchsafe to feed us, who have duly received these holy mysteries, with the spiritual food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ; and dost assure us thereby of thy favour and goodness towards us; and that we are very members incoporate in the mystical body of thy Son, which is the blessed company of all faithful people; and are also heirs through hope of thy everlasting kingdom, by the merits of the most precious death and passion of thy dear Son. And we most humbly beseech thee, O heavenly Father, so to assist us with thy grace, that we may continue in that holy fellowship, and do all such good works as thou hast prepared for us to walk in; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with thee and the Holy Ghost, be all honour and glory, world without end. Amen.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/22 下午 12:36:34
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Alternative Service Book 1980 有效期至31DEC2000
Father of all, we give you thanks and praise, that when we were still far off you met us in your Son and brought us home. Dying and living, he declared your love, gave us grace, and opened the gate of glory. May we who share Christ's body live his risen life; we who drink his cup bring life to others; we whom the Spirit lights give light to the world. Keep us firm in the hope you have set before us, so we and all your children shall be free, and the whole earth live to praise your name; through Christ our Lord. Amen.
or
Almighty God,
We thank you for feeding us
with the Body and Blood of your son, Jesus Christ.
Through him we offer you our souls and bodies
to be a living sacrifice.
Send us out
in the power of your Spirit
to live and work
to your praise and glory. Amen.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/22 下午 01:05:55
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From the Common Worship 2000 till present
Lord and heavenly Father,
We offer you through your dear Son Jesus Christ this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.
Grant that by his merits and death, and through faith in his blood, we and all your Church may receive forgiveness of our sins and all other benefits of his passion.
And here we offer and present to you, O Lord, ourselves, our souls and our bodies, to be a reasonable, holy and living sacrifice; fill us all who share in this holy communion with your grace and heavenly blessing.
Although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins, to offer you any sacrifice, yet we pray that you will accepts this duty and service that we owe. Do not weigh our merits, but pardon our offences, through Jesus Christ our Lord, by whom, with whom… Amen.
Or
Father of all, We give you thanks and praise, that when we were still far off you met us in your Son and brought us home. Dying and living, he declared your love, gave us grace, and opened the gate of glory. May we who share Christ's body live his risen life; we who drink his cup bring life to others; we whom Spirit lights give light to the world. Keep us firm in the hope you have set before us, so we and all your children shall be free, and the whole earth live to praise your name; through Christ our Lord. Amen.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/22 下午 01:08:04
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這是天主教會內一個特准的禮儀, 為那些由聖公會轉入天主教會的人所使用的.
所引此段經文基本上和1662年的公禱書沒有甚麼分別.各位歡迎提出意見.
The BOOK of DIVINE WORSHIP
FOR USE IN PARISHES OF THE PASTORAL PROVISION
Approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops of the United States of America, and
Confirmed by the Apostolic See February, 1987
Almighty and everliving God, we most heartily thank thee for that thou dost feed us in these holy mysteries, with the spiritual food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ; and dost assure us thereby of thy favor and goodness towards us; and that we are very members incorporate in the mystical body of thy Son, the blessed company of all faithful people; and are also heirs, through hope, of thy everlasting kingdom.
And we humbly beseech thee, O heavenly Father, so to assist us with thy grace, that we may continue in that holy fellowship, and do all such good works as thou has prepared for us to walk in; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom with thee and the Holy Ghost be all honor and glory, world without end. Amen.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/22 下午 02:44:42
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噢, 漏了1928年的公禱書建議,該書雖然在教會的大會中通過, 可惜不能在國會中通過.
這是英國的1928公禱書, 有別於美國的1928公禱書.美國的1928公禱書是正式版本的.
今次所討論的公禱書全部限在英國公禱書, 因為加入其他的公禱書會使問題更複雜.
但如有人有興趣, 我應可找齊美國公禱書的所有版本. 和某些蘇格蘭, 澳洲, 加拿大 及紐西蘭公禱書.
ALMIGHTY and everliving God, we most heartily thank thee, for that thou dost
vouchsafe to feed us, who have duly received these holy mysteries, with the spiritual
food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ; and dost
assure us thereby of thy favour and goodness towards us; and that we are very
members incorporate in the mystical body of thy Son, which is the blessed company of
all faithful people; and are also heirs through hope of thy ever lasting kingdom, by the
merits of the most precious death and passion of thy dear Son. And we most humbly
beseech thee, O heavenly Father, so to assist us with thy grace, that we may continue in
that holy fellow ship, and do all such good works as thou hast prepared for us to walk in;
through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with thee and the Holy Ghost, be all honour and
glory, world without end. Amen.
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edward
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Posted -
2001/5/22 下午 10:45:25
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各位可以看看一五五二年聖公宗公禱書在「神聖共融」禮儀中，「跪領聖事」的「正解」：
Although no order can be so perfectly devised, but it may be of some, either for their ignorance and infirmity, or else of malice and obstinance, misconstrued, depraved, and interpreted in a wrong part: And yet because brotherly charity willeth, that so much as conveniently may be, offences should be taken away: therefore we willing do the same. Whereas it is ordained in the book of common prayer, in the administration of the Lord's Supper, that the Communicants kneeling should receive the holy Communion: which thing being well meant, for a signification of the humble and grateful acknowledging of the benefits of Christ, given unto the worthy receiver, and to avoid the profanation and disorder, which about the holy Communion might else ensue: Lest yet the same kneeling might be thought or taken otherwise, we do declare that it is not meant thereby, that any adoration is done, or ought to be done, either unto the Sacramental bread or wine there bodily received, or unto any real and essential presence there being of Christ's natural flesh and blood. For as concerning the Sacramental bread and wine, remain still in their very natural substances, and therefore may not be adored, for that were Idolatry to be abhorred of all faithful christians. And as concerning the natural body and blood of our saviour Christ, they are in heaven and not here. For it is against the truth of Christ's natural body, to be at one time in more places than one, at one time.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/23 上午 12:41:17
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這是有名的"黑禮規"black rubics", 壽命很短, 1559年就已被取消. 他們不信變質說是人所共知的. 它只說明了他們不相信餅和酒有經院哲學所說的質的改變.
它說不是基督物質/自然肉體的真實臨現, 但它卻沒有否定其他"奧秘性"的臨現方式, 這就是為何正教會會接受她們的表述.
類似的否定表述也可在三十九條中見到.
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edward
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Posted -
2001/5/23 上午 07:41:30
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該份聲明，說明了「朝拜聖體」等同於拜偶像。
請問：正教會的弟兄是否亦接納當時聖公宗的看法？
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/23 上午 11:31:06
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我只可說, 不見到正教會有朝拜聖體的習慣. 他們在四旬期有預先祝聖禮品的禮儀, 但沒有以這些"聖體"為朝拜對象. 這問題我不能百分百肯定, 但我傾向相信他們拒絕回答, 而保持聖事的奧秘性.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/23 下午 01:26:52
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在edward所引的那本1552公禱書中的領聖體後經是這樣說的:
ALMIGHTY and everliving God, we most heartily thank thee, for that thou hast vouchsafed to feed us, which have duly received these holy mysteries, with the spiritual food of the most precious body and blood of thy son our saviour Jesus Christ,
這不是說明他們承認奧秘地領受了精神食糧, 主的妙身和寶血嗎?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/23 下午 04:51:36
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另外按 The Longman Companion to the Tudor Age
"1552 Second Prayer Book of Edward VI...included, without parliamentary authority, so-called 'black rubric' or declaration on kneeling during the communion.", 即是話此段rubric是非法插入的, 不算是offical teaching of the church of england.
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edward
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Posted -
2001/5/23 下午 05:26:04
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奇怪的地方，就是在於第一（1549）及第二（1552）版公禱書之間的分別。小弟嘗試在自己察覺到有著實質分別的地方，用粗體顯示。
如在感恩經中、於祝聖前、懇求祝聖聖體聖血的經文：
（1549）
O God heavenly father, which of thy tender mercie diddest geve thine only sonne Jesu Christ to suffre death upon the crosse for our redempcion, who made there (by his one oblacion once offered) a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifyce, oblacion, and satysfaccyon, for the sinnes of the whole worlde, and did institute, and in his holy Gospell commaund us, to celebrate a perpetuall memory of that his precious death, untyll his comming again: Heare us (O merciful father) we besech thee; and with thy holy spirite and worde, vouchsafe to bl+esse and san+ctifie these thy gyftes, and creatures of bread and wyne, that they maie be unto us the bodye and bloude of thy moste derely beloved sonne Jesus Christe. Who in the same nyght that he was betrayed: tooke breade …
（1552）
Almighty God oure heavenly father, whiche of thy tender mercye dyddest geve thine onely sonne Jesus Christ, to suffre death upon the crosse for our redempcion, who made there (by hys one oblacion of hymselfe once offered) a full, perfecte and sufficiente sacrifice, oblacion, and satisfaccion, for the synnes of the whole worlde, and dyd institute, and in hys holye Gospell commaund us to continue, a perpetuall memorye of that his precious death, untyll hys comynge agayne: Heare us O mercyefull father wee beeseche thee; and graunt that wee, receyving these thy creatures of bread and wyne, accordinge to thy sonne our Savioure Jesus Christ's holy institucion, in remembraunce of his death and passion, maye be partakers of his most blessed body and bloud: who, in the same night that he was betrayed, tooke bread
（1559）
Almighty God our heavenly father whiche of thy tender rnercye, diddest give thine onely Sonne Jesus Christ, to suffer death upon the Crosse for our redeption, who made ther (by his one oblation of himself once offered) a ful, perfect and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction for the synnes of the whole worlde, and didde institute, and in his holy gospel commaunde us to continue a perpetual memory of that his precious deathe, untyll his comminge againe: Heare us O merciful father, we besech the, and graunt that we receivyng these thy creatures of breade and wine, accordinge to thy sonne our saviour Jesu Christes holy institution, in remembrauce of his death and passion, may be partakers of his moste blessed body and bloude, who in the same night that he was betraied, toke bread …
至於送聖體的禱文：
（1549）禮規稱作：「The Sacrament of the Body」
The body of our Lorde Jesus Christe whiche was geven for thee, preserve thy bodye and soule unto everlasting lyfe.
（1552）禮規稱作：「The breade」
Take and eate this, in remembraunce that Christ dyed for thee, and feede on him in thy hearte by faythe, with thankesgeving.
（1559）禮規稱作：「The breade」
The bodie of our lord Jesu Christ, which was geven for the, preserve thy body and soule into everlastinge life: and take and eate this in remembraunce that Christ died for thee, feede on him in thine heart by faith, with thankesgevynge.
請問靚仔兄怎樣解釋這些分別呢？
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edward
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Posted -
2001/5/23 下午 06:07:53
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那麼一六六二年的Black Rubric呢？
「Whereas it is ordained in this Office for the Administration of the Lord's Supper, that the Communicants should receive the same kneeling; (which order is well meant, for a signification of our humble and grateful acknowledgment of the benefits of Christ therein given to all worthy Receivers, and for the avoiding of such profanation and disorder in the holy Communion, as might otherwise ensue;) yet, lest the same kneeling should by any persons, either out of ignorance and infirmity, or out of malice and obstinacy, be misconstrued and depraved: It is hereby declared, That thereby no adoration is intended, or ought to be done, either unto the Sacramental Bread or Wine there bodily received, or unto any Corporal Presence of Christ's natural Flesh and Blood. For the Sacramental Bread and Wine remain still in their very natural substances, and therefore may not be adored; (for that were Idolatry, to be abhorred of all faithful Christians;). and the natural Body and Blood of our Saviour Christ are in Heaven, and not here; it being against the truth of Christ's natural Body to be at one time in more places than one.」
這算不算是聖公宗的正式訓導呢？
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/24 上午 11:35:26
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oops. 你是對的, 1559年的公禱書取消了, 1662年的又從新印出. 我想那表述應是正式的了.
但問題始終是, 該段的意思是否定基督的真實臨現?還是肉身的臨現?是否一否定後者的經院哲學的"形質"類比的理解, 及後的變質學說, 便代表他的聖餐一定是"假"的呢?
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/24 上午 11:50:35
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焦可否認, 1552年的公禱書是有強烈的改革宗特式的. 但問題也在於, 我們傳統的表述也說, 聖體聖事的"形"是耶穌的話:"這是我的身體...."名顯地聖公宗的禮書是具備了此"形"的.
變質說當然是我們教會正式的訓導, 我也無意挑戰此訓導, 實在我是接受和理解到此訓導.
問題是, 是否反對此訓導的教會就不可能有真實的聖餐? 有幾個東方教會曾同意這信理?
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edward
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Posted -
2001/5/24 下午 08:00:21
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靚仔兄所指的東方教會，是否東正教呢？
小弟對東正教認識有限，袛是在和大家討論東正教「Liturgy of the Presanctified」的時候，約略地觸及東正教弟兄們的教義，因而得益不淺。有一個東正教的網頁對羅馬教會的態度雖然不很友善，但卻是承認「Transubstantiation」的。
現在嘗試將他們的看法抄錄出來：
With the help of scholastic concepts, Catholic doctrine also attempts to explain the eucharistic miracle itself too rationalistically. According to this explanation, only the appearance of bread and wine remains unchanged, but their essence (substantia) is changed into the Body and Blood of Christ.
The Orthodox ecclesiastical consciousness reverently refrains from such a rationalistic penetration into the mystery. In it, the conviction prevails that the bread and wine, remaining themselves in appearance, at the same time become the Body and Blood of the Lord, just as red-hot iron becomes fire, and just as the Lord Jesus Christ is simultaneously God and man.
Concerning this, Father Michael Pomazansky, in his Orthodox Dogmatic Theology (page 183 [pages 279-280 in the English edition]) writes thus:
'...the consecrated Gifts 1) are not only signs or symbols, reminding the faithful of redemption, as the reformer Zwingli taught; and equally, 2) Jesus Christ is present in them not only by His "activity and power" ("dynamically"), as Calvin taught; finally, 3) He is present not in the sense only of "penetration", as the Lutherans teach (recognizing the co-presence of Christ "with the bread, under the bread, in the bread"); but the consecrated Gifts in the sacrament are changed or (a later term) transubstantiated into the true Body and true Blood of Christ, as the Saviour said: "For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).'
Further, Father Michael Pomazansky cites words from the "Epistle of the Eastern Patriarchs" (eighteenth century):
'We believe that in this sacred rite our Lord Jesus Christ is present not symbolically (typikos), not figuratively (eikonikos), not by a superabundance of grace, as in the other sacraments, not by a descent alone, as certain Fathers say about baptism, and not through a "penetration" of the bread, so that the divinity of the Word would "enter" into the bread offered for the Eucharist essentially, as the followers of Luther rather artlessly and unworthily explain: but truly and actually, so that after the consecration of the bread and wine, the bread is changed, transubstantiated, converted, transformed into the actual true Body of the Lord, which was born in Bethlehem of the Ever-Virgin, was baptized in the Jordan, suffered, was buried, resurrected, ascended, sits at the right hand of the God the Father, and is to appear on the clouds of heaven; and the wine is converted and transubstantiated into the actual true Blood of the Lord, which, at the time of His suffering on the Cross was shed for the life of the world. Again we believe that after the consecration of the bread and wine, the very bread and wine no longer remain, but the very Body and Blood of the Lord, under the appearance and form of bread and wine'
(Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, page 183 [page 280 in the English edition])….
兩教當然在聖體聖事的神學上，仍有著不少分歧（如有關Epiclesis的問題）。但在Transubstantiation教義方面，則大概是相當一致的。
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edward
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Posted -
2001/5/24 下午 08:35:50
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小弟會傾向於認為：問題並不在於聖公宗是不是正式否定了羅馬教會的「表述」，而是在於聖公宗是不是否定了羅馬教會所表述的「現實」。假若東正教基於一些（譬如政治）原因，拒絕用「Transubstantiatio」去表述聖體聖事的現實，但從他們的具體行動看來，他們是持守著這個現實的話，那麼，我相信羅馬教會亦不會否定他們的理解。
小弟經過這幾天的搜尋，得出的一個印象是：英國聖公宗《公禱書》的形成，說到底其實就是政治妥協的產物。它用辭曖昧，而又時刻受著英國國會的操控。清教徒執政時，它換上了清教徒的面孔。從這個角度看去，這本禮儀書是相當沒有「性格」的。英國國會當年所通過的三十九條信仰原則，在現時的聖公宗中，也有著很分歧的理解。在聖公宗內，你可以徹頭徹尾的做「英國天主教徒」（Anglo-Catholic），亦可以轉換性格，做一個極端的福音派。羅馬教會不信任這本公禱書，從實際的角度看，是絕對值得理解的。
我們不能否認，聖公宗在近百多年來，已愈發醒覺到與羅馬教會之間的淵源。有好一陣子，他們有很多弟兄，極為認同羅馬教會的信仰，甚至公開欣賞特倫多大公會的訓導，因此他們亦開始焦慮到自身教會聖秩的有效性。教宗良十三世的《Apostolicae Curae》，才會令他們感到如此的沮喪。
1928年，聖公宗建議國會批准修改《公禱書》，（其中的一個改變是引入「Reservation of Sacrament」），受到國會的否決。從此聖公宗就不再向國會提出這類議案了，改為獨自出版「An Alternative Book of Prayer」。若翻閱這本書，我們會發覺，聖公會在近數十年出版的聖餐禮儀書，幾乎與我們使用的感恩經沒有實質分別。
很多時，參加聖公宗的禮儀，給我的感覺是：他們比我們更加「羅馬」！
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/25 上午 10:54:30
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如果我們讀教會史的話, 我們不難發覺教會很多時都有政治妥協. 只是羅馬主教後來自擁俗世的權力, 便不再是妥協, 而是強權.
當然這一切也已成過去, 我們應"淨化回憶", 向前邁進.
每個時期我們的信仰表述的重點也有不同, 而"錯誤"的表述也時有發生, 那我們就是否懷疑他的正統性?
天使聖師也曾不同意聖母無原罪, 是否這就代表他不正統? 還是因為他死得早, 可以逃過被判為異端?
如我們的信仰"實體"像edward所說沒有改變過, 照理解多馬斯應是異端, 又或是在不能改變的無知之中.
當聖師也有無知的一面時, 我實不敢說, 我們能理解天主的所有奧秘.
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靚仔
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Posted -
2001/5/25 上午 10:57:18
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比羅馬禮更羅馬, 可能正是那個拉大哥的笑話一樣, 比天主更天主.
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edward
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Posted -
2001/5/25 下午 07:13:50
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聖多瑪斯是不是異端呢？哪種意義下的異端呢？
Can. 751 –
Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith …
聖多瑪斯的臨終禱文：
Sumo te pretium redemptionis animae meae.
Sumo te viaticum peregrinationis meae, pro cuius amore studui, vigilavi et laboravi et praedicavi et docui.
Nihil unquam contra te dixi.
Sed si quid dixi ignorans, nec sum pertinax in sensu meo.
Sed si quid male dixi, totum relinquo correctioni Ecclesiae Romanae. Amen.
個人的錯漏，連聖人也少不免。聖人的信德，亦需要教會的補足。「Ecclesia supplet」－－也許這就是我們所持守的Catholic Faith吧！
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edward
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Posted -
2001/5/25 下午 07:28:29
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為此我也很喜歡中華教會的「信德誦」。未知當年中華殉道諸聖選擇捨生取義時，這篇經文在他們心目中的地位如何呢？
該篇經文是這樣唸的：
吾主天主爾至真實不能虛言爾又全知不能舛錯我為此信爾是真天主一體三位造世贖世賞善罰惡之大主宰
爾曾許聖教會內聖神常在訓誨啟迪是以永不能錯所有各端道理皆爾默啟如爾親口所言無異我為此堅心全信我並願為證此信德雖被萬死不辭亞孟
今天的教會，還有沒有人肯像以前的教友般，以這樣的勇毅、這份豪情，去見證這份信德呢？
若我們能活出這份信德，那麼，也許中國教會就能真正本地化了。
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