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Cecil
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Posted -
2003/11/11 上午 09:06:17
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從正教mitrophanes兄的解說中,有一句可以再深入探討的 - 教會(正教)不主張'不僧不俗'的獨身生活.在正教的立場看,教區神父不發神貧,守貞這兩個修會會士修士們所發的願,是'不僧不俗'的一個例子.
闢開這形容詞是否正確不談.教區神父在堂區工作,直接接觸在俗的教友,對家庭,對社會對各階層的接觸均較會士們廣泛得多.
如果教區神父沒有神貧守貞這兩大意識來羈圍他們的行為操守,單憑一招服從,可以嗎?
有何經驗分享?
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JM
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Posted -
2003/11/11 下午 10:37:58
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My apologies if it has already been covered elsewhere.
The above gives the impression that the diocesan priests do NOT take vow of celibacy. Is that really true? The special pastoral provision for the married clergy converts from Anglican/Episcopal denomination is an exception, not the general norm.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2003/11/12 上午 10:06:47
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Dear JM,
As far as I know, Diocesan priests take the vow of obedience. And the requirement of celibacy is one that is prescribed for being a 'practising' priest. There are a group of ordained priests that hold themselves out as performers of priestly rites for the laity, but they are actually not 'in office' as such within their own Diocese, because they have married and left the 'office' of a priest.
They are holding themselves out as being duly ordained, and once a priest, always a priest, even they have married. (See the website on 'rentapriest').
This is the anomaly which I think Bro. Mitrophane addressed quite adequately earlier on in the previous posting on the other thread under this column.
Also, my concern is that unlike the religious priests who gather together as a group and reside together, Diocesan priests often live alone, or in the context of a looser discipline. I know some Dioceses where it is the PP who alone sets the rules of the house, and if he is not that well-disciplined, one can imagine what it would be like.
But what I am really concerned is this - many Diocesan priests feel that they long for the feelings of 'home'. If that's how they feel, would a single-life priesthood be what is for them?
On the other hand, they are perfectly dedicated to priestly duties. They work round the clock; and too often, got worn out and have a lot of physical and psychological problems. What they in fact need is a home and not a 'quarter' where may be only one priest resides, or several reside together but are in a 'boss-staff' relationship (unlike the religious orders).
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2003/11/12 上午 10:25:05
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Oh, that throws up some real controversy, does it?
At any rate, celibacy is a requirement, but under canon law, it seems that once ordained, a person remains a priest even if he is married.
The problem is that, for those that are Diocesan priests, they do not take the vow of chastity. It is not uncommon, in some overseas diocese, for 'housekeeper' scandals to breakout. I've read on the internet once overseas diocesan priest admitting that many of his colleagues have this sort of rumours - that their housekeepers perform well beyond housekeeping functions; and apart from housekeepers, lady parishioners too.
I don't know how true this depicts our local Diocese, but it would not be 'nil' as far as I am aware of.
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JM
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Posted -
2003/11/13 上午 03:48:44
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Dear Cecil,
As you said, these Rent-A-Priests (pardon the phrase, no disrespect intended) are not holding the ‘office’ of priest, and they declare that also. These are exceptions, let's not generalize their peculiar state (again no disrespect intended) and non-observance of celibacy with the general practicing priests.
As to your original question -- taking 2 additional vows will not make a difference unless they are fully committed. I think we need to go back to basics. The first key is solid formation before ordination. Then as priests, they must have an active prayer life (daily) to prevail over different challenges, doubts, and temptations. Most priests are overworked and carry a heavy cross, all the more reason not to sacrifice prayer time and get buried alive by the work. That will be fatal! Then how the laity support and love the priests can also help. The priests are human and need our love and affirmation. How often do we tell them that we love them? How often do we pray for priests, and let them know they are not alone fighting a good fight?
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Cecil
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Posted -
2003/11/13 上午 08:59:38
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Of course I fully agree with what JM says above.
The scarcity in number of priests, their over-heavy workload, the Diocesan priests' not having the benefit of a monastic community but often have to reside alone, all demand a super human effort to handle.
If what is required now, apart from priesthood formation, is the formation of the laity. Nowadays many neophytes and baby catholics aren't that conscious of the plight of our priests.
I personally knew catholics (women) who generously 'entertain' their parish priest to their overseas residence during the latter's vacation, building up a close personal relationship with the priest, very kindly giving them the feeling of a 'home' TO THE EXCLUSION OF others.
I think what's being done is perfectly OK if it is done in the context of an entire family or a group of lay faithfuls. However, if that was done in the context of one or two single women to the exclusion of their family members (even more so their husbands), that's indeed problematic!
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2003/11/13 上午 09:39:43
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I know those 'events'. The ladies were quite oblivious of the repercussions among the parishioners, but they were huge.
I do not understand why parishioners got so upset with such things, but they do.
My concern is - if the feeling of home is so important to a priest working in a parish, why does he not foster this feeling among all the parishioners, but only harbour it with a selected few, let alone married women 'to the exclusion of their husbands'?
Is it analogous to the traditional old Chinese saying of 契媽 that he is looking for?
Is this in tune with priesthood? I await enlightenment on this aspect.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2003/11/13 上午 10:46:09
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Many emigrated catholics do love inviting HK based priests to stay in their homes for short visits.
I wonder if the priests would be willing to do so if the parishioner resides locally. Home visits are almost 'nil' nowadays by priests. I think that is the start of many problems.
Most of the time, those emigrated are much more well-off than local parishioners. If the priests avoid going to local parishioners' homes and would only send lay parishioners around in Christmas or so, what about their own values?
Diocesan priests do not take vows of poverty either, and how would they explain such discrepancies?
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2003/11/13 上午 11:36:26
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I observed also that in some parishes Filippinas are not treated in the same way as Chinese parishioners.
A very simple example - are they represented in the Councils?
If they are not, why?
Such discriminatory treatment of parishioners is very distasteful, if not wrong.
It runs counter to the Church's teaching of equality and justice.
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Cecil
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Posted -
2003/11/13 下午 03:22:31
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有些堂區(如St Joseph)則主要是菲律賓教友.
如果堂區'想'將她們'逼'到這些堂區而不在其他堂區活動,這是很要不得的策略 - 聖保祿說,大家都是基督的肢體,手不能對腳說'我不喜歡你',等等.
偏偏這些基本的道理,完全不受重視,那麼,如此的聖堂不是玩exclusivity的俱樂部,還像甚麼?
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Josemaria
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Posted -
2003/11/13 下午 03:36:08
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Well, a successfully run social club would not be the apt description of such a parish. We find there:
factional enmity
jealousy among lady parishioners
suspicion and distrust
single-handedness and off handed treatments
hidden agenda
accusations of the most scandalous kind
non-communication
Generally speaking, a place of rivalry and ill-will.
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去非
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Posted -
2003/11/13 下午 10:45:44
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對於教律要求神父獨身的問題﹐我看還是以歷史的角度出發比較好一些。我們都知道初期的教會並不沒有強行要求神職人員守獨身﹔現行教律的規定是慢慢發展出來的。要了解為何天主教會要求神父守獨身﹐就必須從這條教律的歷史發展去著手。否則﹐以偏執的眼光去批判歷史(不是指這裡的任何一位)﹐而不去理解過去為何會形成那樣的現像﹐這種探討方法是我所不能認同的。
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